“The fast fashion graveyard in Chile’s Atacama Desert”, or “Chile’s Atacama Desert: Where Fast Fashion Goes to Die” or maybe “Chile’s Desert: dumping ground for fast fashion’s leftovers”.

In this episode, we’re hearing from Angela of Desierto Vestido and Laura from SumOfUs to go beyond the headlines to discover what led to this waste crisis decades before it grabbed the attention of the media and how things have been faring after the news stories died down…

Links From This Episode:

Sign SumOfUs’ Petition to Gabriel Boric

SumOfUs Instagram

Desierto Vestido Instagram

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

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Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

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Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey everyone and welcome or welcome back to the Conscious Style Podcast! 

As I talked about in the intro, this upcoming episode will be all about the realities of fashion’s waste crisis in the Atacama Desert. 

So this story hit the media, I would say, in late 2021, early 2022, but in case you missed it, photos and accounts of clothing dumps in the middle of the Atacama Desert in Chile went viral. 

So Chile is Latin America’s biggest importer of secondhand clothing, and imported nearly 60,000 tonnes of secondhand and unsold clothing last year.

And similar to the story of Kantamanto Market in Accra, Ghana, or Owino market in Kampala, Uganda, the secondhand markets in Chile cannot possibly resell all of the clothing that is arriving at their ports.

So: where does this clothing go? Although it may look like it goes “away” for the fashion brands or “away” for those of us who might have donated or “recycled” those clothes, we know that away is still somewhere. These clothes don’t just disappear into thin air, right?

Especially since we know that the majority of clothing today is made up of at least a percentage of synthetic plastic fibers.

And one of these places — in addition to Accra, Ghana and Kampala, Uganda that is dealing with the “away” of the secondhand and overproduced clothing is the Atacama Desert in Chile. 

So in this episode, you’ll be hearing from Angela of the local activist group Desierto Vestido — which translates to Desert Dress – and Laura from SumOfUs, a global nonprofit advocacy organization and online community that campaigns to hold corporations accountable on issues like climate change and human rights.

Angela will be speaking in Spanish, so we have English translation provided by Nao, who is the social media manager at our sister organization, Conscious Fashion Collective.

And the transcript for this episode will be available in the show notes as usual. The link to the show notes can always be found in the episode description of, I would say, most podcast listening apps. 

So this was a special episode to put together. It was a bit of extra coordination and editing but I think the result was well worth it. I’m so grateful that Angela, Laura, and Nao were able to join me for this really important conversation. 

And we also talk about action steps towards the end. Because as we know, awareness — while an essential step — is unfortunately not enough to actually get the change that we seek.

And I feel like that’s one of the biggest things that media outlets missed with this story is where do we go from here? How do we take action? How do we hold the responsible parties accountable? What can we do? I think that’s super important.

And I just always like to make sure that we talk about how we can get involved and take action whenever discussing an issue like this. Because I feel like when you present this massive issue and you don’t give people ways to actually change things, they’re either paralyzed by the overwhelming nature or they develop this apathy because they just think ‘well, that’s the way things are. It’s unfortunate but that’s just how they are and that’s how they will be.

And if you’ve been listening to this show, if you follow @conscioustyle on Instagram, if you know me at all, you know I do not believe in that at all. Change is possible. But it won’t just happen automatically, right? We have to be part of the change that we want to see.

Anyway, rant over. Let’s get into the show! To start us off, Angela, is sharing a bit of background on the fashion waste crisis in the Atacama Desert, and Nao is going to translate for us…

ANGELA 

NAO 

For over 20 years this zone has been used as a sacrifice zone or textile waste, where tonnes of clothes are thrown there and then burned or buried and there isn’t a good managing of this residues..

It’s been an excessive throwing of clothing and that has affected the people around and impoverishing the communities that surround the desert.

ANGELA 

NAO 

The clothes from all around the world and up in the desert, from underwear, to bags, to anything else. It’s in bad state so it’s the things that don’t go through that quality check. And even new things with the tags are found in there.

All this is because of fast fashion. And because there is no supervision in the customer office. So the thing just get their as secondhand clothes even if it isn’t. And it’s just named as secondhand clothes, even if it’s not.

ELIZABETH  

Mhm, yeah. And Laura, could you tell us more where these clothes are coming from? How do these secondhand clothes and in some cases, unsold unworn clothes end up even getting imported to Chile in the first place?

LAURA  

Yeah, of course. So as Angela mentioned, Chile has just become one of the dumped grounds for secondhand clothing and Latin America. And it’s all really part of a very dirty supply chain. 

So how it starts, I’m kind of in a general way of explaining it. It’s secondhand and unsold clothing. It’s often produced in Asia first, and then it passes through Europe and the US. And then whatever isn’t sold there — which is a lot because companies overproduce — then that is shipped to Chile. 

Again, because fast fashion has this incentive. It’s just cheaper to overproduce. And what we found is that, yeah, we were surprised that Chile is Latin America’s top importer of secondhand clothing. 

So a lot of this, a lot of these clothes are brought through the port of Iquique. And this is a free zone. So it’s also known as a free zone of Iquique. And that is one of the country’s free trade zones and approximately around 60,000 tonnes of clothing enter that port every year, which is sold by retailers in Latin America. So it’s a lot of clothes.

ELIZABETH 

Wow. 60,000 tonnes of clothing every single year. It’s almost difficult to wrap your head around how much clothing that really is. 

And I read in a report put together by SumOfUs that only 15% of the clothing entering the ports is able to get resold within the secondhand markets there and 85% of it is getting dumped. So Laura, can you tell us a bit more about why so much of this clothes is not able to be resold?

LAURA 

Yeah, so there are two elements to this. One is the one I just mentioned that it’s overproduction and just simply not being able to sell it all. And overproducing is just both cheaper and logistically easier for the retailer, so they order too much, and then they just deal with the excess later. 

And it’s both a question of convenience, but also financial gain, because also sometimes manufacturers often have a minimum threshold in terms of orders. 

And the other element of it is dealing with the waste itself that recycling for example, it’s labor, and it requires sorting through the clothes and separating the garments. And it also just requires more money. So it’s actually just cheaper and easier to dump it in a country also like Chile that doesn’t have the sufficient regulations in place.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. And beyond of course the physical waste present, what are some of the other environmental and perhaps also social impacts of all this clothing being dumped in the desert?

LAURA

Yeah, so one of the main ways in which fast fashion is just really polluting is that I mean, the garments are made with synthetic materials, and they’re often sprayed with chemicals. And these kinds of clothes can take up to 200 years to biodegrade. So it’s actually as toxic as discarded plastic or tires, which is I think most people assume clothes would dissolve faster, but they don’t. 

And the problem is that there’s also no legal structure in place in Chile to dispose of these massive amounts of clothing. So what often happens is that they also get burned, which Angela will talk more about in a bit, which just happened. And this obviously generates incredible environmental hazards, like air pollution and those are kind of health implications. 

But obviously, it’s also threatening the ecosystem of the desert, and communities that live really nearby. So in this case, the landfill, as Angela mentioned, it’s located right by Alto Hospicio where about like 120,000 people live and this is also just 10 minutes away from the port where all the clothes come in. 

And of course, these are also marginalized communities that are dealing with a dumping ground in their backyard and inhaling the direct toxic gases generated by the decomposing of the clothing. So it’s pretty disastrous in many ways.

ELIZABETH 

For sure. And Angela, could you speak to some of the challenges with regulating these imports and managing all of this clothing waste?

ANGELA

NAO  

In 2019, a decree was signed that approves the roadmap for a circular economy in Chile from 2020 to 2024. It was powered by the Ministry of Environment, the Ministry of Economics, and the sustainability and climate change agency. This will be a force that will boost the circular economy for Chile in the future.

ANGELA

NAO  

Circular Economy constitutes a change in the way that things are consumed and produced to change the linear way that things are happening now of producing, consuming, and then throwing away.

To move forward so that the materials that entered the circular economy are used again and again so that the resources are used in a more conscious way.

Which generates better environmental impacts and even better economic impacts.

ANGELA

NAO  

Inside this roadmap, there’s some studies developing so their new products are made priorities.

This will make the law that’s called REP includes textile products because those weren’t counted as a priority before. 

ANGELA

NAO

When the textiles get into the REP law, then the enterprises will make sure the waste of textile is taken care of, reused, or a good way to send them away or discard them.

This law will help a lot in Chile to make responsible the people that are actually responsible. 

And make sure that if the industry is inside Chile, and the importing companies take care of the textile waste and older production line.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. And speaking of brand accountability, Laura, I know that Desierto Vestido and SumOfUs collaborated for an on-the-ground research project to find which brands’ clothing was ending up in the dumps in the Atacama Desert. So can you tell us some of the brands that were found most frequently in these mountains of textile waste?

LAURA 

Yeah, of course. So given how large the piles were of clothing that we found, it was obviously impossible to sort through it all. So a disclaimer that samples were taken at different locations and the dumping ground. So within an hour of sorting through the clothing, these are the brands that we found the most:

So Old Navy was by far the most frequently encountered fashion brand, and then that was followed by H&M, Adidas, Calvin Klein, Wrangler, and Levi’s. 

Those were the top ones, but we also found dozens of other brands and I mean, they’re all the brands that most people know, Forever21, Zara, Hugo Boss, Vans, Gap.

I think probably all of us are wearing some piece of clothing from these brands. So we were surprised to find so many, but Old Navy was the top one.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s interesting. And so these fashion brands are not necessarily the ones directly dumping the waste in the Atacama Desert. Supply chains are very complex. But brands still do hold some responsibility for the situation. So, Angela, could you explain why fashion brands should be held accountable for this clothing waste?

ANGELA 

NAO 

So the REP law is a big part of how to make responsible these brands because they create the garments. So they have to be responsible of the entire production line. They can’t just throw something once or forget about something once they send it away.

But they have to make sure they know where their waste is going and how and where things end up. 

So this law is a step toward that — making the brands responsible, especially because most of these garments are made of plastic, which decomposts after a long time — 200 years — so the garments will be there for a long time so they have to be responsible for that.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. Yeah, they have to be responsible for the full lifecycle of what they’re producing. And then in June, there was a large fire in the Atacama Desert that burned a lot of this clothing. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

ANGELA 

NAO  

Just right the day of the fires, they were going to their landfills because they check the landfills. And they had a visit planned for that day. And exactly that day, was when the fires happened.

ANGELA 

NAO 

When they got there, the City Hall people were already there. And they had machinery and things kind of ready. So they found this suspicious, they buried a lot of the garments that got burned, and they’re still little specks of garment but everything was burned and buried. 

There’s also suspicion because there wasn’t media covering. Desierto Vestido published something about it. But there wasn’t anyone — and there’s a lawsuit against the City Hall…

ANGELA  

NAO

There was a lawsuit against the municipality and the fires lasted two weeks. And they are really suspicious because of no media coverage. And because they think that they wanted to hide something.

And so just Desierto Vestido and SumofUs covered what happened but after this nobody else thought about it even when it lasted two weeks.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, that is very convenient timing and suspicious activity, especially with the lack of media coverage as you mentioned. Could you share a bit more of the backstory on that, you know why they might have wanted to cover up the waste crisis in the Atacama Desert specifically in June?

ANGELA 

NAO 

So there was a lawyer that wanted to do an expert report on the zone before the fires. But then a week after, the fires happened. She wanted to go on with a lawsuit to find the responsible people about the filling of the desert with clothes for over 20 years. 

It’s been happening and she wanted to find the people responsible about it. But as soon as she wanted to do something about it, the fires happened so they don’t think it’s a coincidence that this happened.

ANGELA  

NAO  

So more than finding the culprits, they want to move forward. They want to make deals with the communes and the government to change this because the community of Alto Hospicio, it’s been too much for them. So they want to move on, and they don’t want to keep leaving with this burden for the community. 

They know that there’s people that can change this with their small businesses and with upcycling and recycling, so they understand that there’s a change that can be done but it will just work at the commune, and the government and the community work together.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. And we definitely will cover some of the solutions that Desierto Vestido and SumOfUs are working on currently.

But first I was wondering if we could talk a little bit more about the impacts of this waste being burned.. 

So Laura talked about the social and environmental effects of that textile waste in the Atacama Desert, but Angela could you speak to what the ecological and health impacts were of that waste getting burned in the desert in June?

ANGELA 

NAO  

So the clothes come with toxic chemicals, that when they are buried or spend too much time in the ground, they pass these chemicals to the ground. So any living being that was on or under the ground, dies, and it’s very difficult for life to come back. And when they are burned, then these chemicals are released within the fire. 

So there’s terrible consequences for people with respiratory issues or illnesses and even the elderly and the kids are at risk. Kids can’t even go out to play on the streets or with their friends because of how much waste there is. Because in the past, the landfills were near the town or the communities but now they’re in the communities. 

So it’s impossible for these communities to avoid the waste and the side effects or the immediate effects that when these clothes come with.

ANGELA  

NAO  

Besides the commune, the municipality, they buried the clothes. So they think that this is solving the problem because they don’t see it anymore. But this means only that the pollution is going more in-depth in the ground. So it’s even more difficult to get rid of the effects that the chemicals have in the field, because it’s buried.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. Wow. So what is the current status or the current state of those areas in the Atacama Desert where the clothing waste was and the communities around it? What does it look like now? 

ANGELA 

NAO 

So there are still clothes. Not as much as before, but there are still clothes. They closed the part of that of the desert that is the landfill. But people still go with their cars and leave the clothes beside the fences, and it makes piles of clothing still. 

Before there were 100,000 tonnes of clothes and there isn’t anymore because it got burned. But it’s coming back because of how people are still throwing away the clothes, even if it isn’t in the exact landfills. But they just live in the desert now, everywhere in the desert. 

And because there isn’t an actual regulation of the REP law, this is still happening. And it won’t stop happening until there are people who are actually enforcing the law.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. It just sounds like there is a lack of accountability and regulation and enforcement all around. 

But I know that Desierto Vestido and SumOfUs are working together to try to change that. You have a campaign right now to demand that the new Chilean President Gabriel Boric, put an end to this textile waste crisis in the Atacama Desert. 

So Laura, could you tell us a bit more about this campaign and what its goals are?

LAURA 

Yeah, of course. So we launched this campaign earlier this year. Mostly, when we saw there was a surge of media coverage on the clothes dump and a lot of papers, international papers, were covering this. But what we noticed is that no one was really talking about the brands and just fast fashion and putting it more into context. 

And certainly, no one was talking about specific brands or just kind of following the supply chain. So that’s when we partnered with Desierto Vestido and we sent out a team. So Angela went along with other members of Desierto Vestido and we also had a filmmaker. And that’s when we gathered more detailed footage of the clothes and that’s when we saw the specific brands. 

So that was part of the campaign. And also the campaign was also launched this year within the context that 2022 could be a pivotal turning point to clean up the fashion industry with the new progressive Chilean President who assumed office in March. 

Yeah, Gabriel Boric, has presented himself basically as a stark departure from Chile’s decades of pro-business policies. And he has publicly vowed to prioritize ecology and equality. 

So that’s much better than previous presidents. So we also saw this as an opportunity to pressure him to finally regulate the fast fashion industry. But of course, I think the campaign is far from over. And this will continue because there’s no regulation so far.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah well, hopefully 2022 will prove to be a turning point as you hope for the fashion waste crisis in the Atacama Desert.

And just to clarify, have SumOfUs and Desierto Vestido been working to address the waste in the Atacama Desert before this year?

LAURA 

Desierto Vestido has. We haven’t. We also partnered with them because at SumOfUs, we really find it important to work with people and organizations on the ground that have already been doing this work. 

So what SumOfUs contributed in a way was giving more international coverage and also leveraging. We do have a membership of millions of people so kind of spotlighting this more but Desierto Vestido has definitely been working on this for a while and I’m sure Angela could share more about it.

ELIZABETH 

Gotcha, yeah. So Angela, you mentioned that this waste crisis in the desert has been going on for 20 years and as Laura just mentioned, Desierto Vestido has been on the ground working to address this issue for a little while as well.

Given that, why do you think that this story was only picked up by mainstream news outlets in late 2021 when the problem has been going on for so much longer than that?

ANGELA  

NAO 

So this has been a silent problem. The authorities say that they’re managing it, but they haven’t. So Desierto Vestido has been advocating for this subject since 2020. Because they’re from the zone — they’re from Catapaka. 

And they went to the authorities to demand that this was taken care of. And the authorities said that there was actually a company that was taking care of it, but it was only taking care of the 1% of the waste. 

ANGELA  

NAO 

So, when they researched the company, they found out that the CEO made insulating panels from recycled clothes and he said that he was taking care of the entirety of the waste but he was just taking care of the 1%.

When Desierto Vestido found out about the CEO and saw that he wanted to make or that he made already recycled panels, they wanted to ask for a fund from him but Angela says that this was the worst decision asking for this.

ANGELA 

NAO 

So they proposed a project of textile recycle or collecting water because they’re in a desert and he stole the project from them. He moved to Santiago and in his website and his campaigns he presented the project as his but it was Desierto Vestido’s project they proposed to him because they thought that he could help them because he was an enterpriser and the company was already made. 

So that they could have the funding for this and they could collaborate in this because it was an advantage for him because he knew how to and for the community because they need the water but he stole the idea and the project and then he moved

ANGELA  

NAO  

So, right when Franklin, the CEO left, a lawsuit started. They wanted to solve the problem but also sue the people responsible for the problem. And he conveniently left like it was convenient for both selling the project and avoiding the lawsuit. 

And because of this, they are really disappointed the communities, Desierto Vestido, because they cannot count on the authorities and even people they looked up to and inspired them. Now they see the true colors of these people. 

And even though they are disappointed they want to still fight, because for Angela, this is personal. She lives there and she has a child. So she doesn’t want her almost entire life to be the same for her daughter.

ELIZABETH

Absolutely. And I’m sure that listeners after hearing all of this are wanting to be a part of that fight towards addressing fashion’s waste crisis in the Atacama Desert. So what are some ways that all of us can get involved?

ANGELA 

NAO 

So Angela wants to invite everyone, no matter what part of the world they are from, to think about their purchasing habits.

So when we buy something, it’s because we need it. And this need has to come from a place of knowledge. Know which fabrics, which fibers to choose? Know other alternatives like upcycling or swapping, or buying secondhand, and actually looking at what we’re putting on their bodies.

Because not only because we are wearing them, but because maybe they can end up somewhere else that will damage the land like we saw in the air. So she wants to invite everyone to make conscious decisions.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah definitely. Considering where that garment came from and also where it’s going. 

And that was an interesting point about the toxicity of our clothes. We talk about the damage that these toxic materials are doing in the communities where the clothing is being produced, but we also have to think about what the ecological impact is on the communities that have to manage that waste at the end of the garments’ lifecycle. So definitely some food for thought there.

And Laura, is there anything else that you would add to that?

LAURA 

Yeah, I think a lot of it is echoing what Angela said, I mean, it’s consuming responsibly and really educating ourselves on what fast fashion is and the implications of it and the supply chain that’s involved in it. 

It’s hard to tell right now how our campaign will continue to evolve. But we might also expand this to two companies themselves. So that could be a potential future opportunity for people to get involved to just make the actual brands accountable for the waste that they’re producing. 

And I think for now, in terms of the campaign we have right now with the Chilean President and would be signing and sharing it and just spreading awareness about the issue. Because the media also jumped on this for a few months and then as many other things it just completely it’s off the radar you know.

And as Angela mentioned earlier, there was no coverage on the fire and I mean this is still affecting the communities there. So just continuing to amp up the pressure with the Chilean government for now.

ELIZABETH

Hmmm yeah, and we will be sure to put the link to that petition to the new Chilean President in the episode description and show notes so everybody listening right now can go ahead and sign that. It takes just takes a few seconds, anyone in the world can sign it, and it can help drive change and support communities like Angelas’ who are facing the brunt of fashion’s waste crisis.

And then also the links to both of your organization’s Instagram accounts — Desierto Vestido and SumOfUs — will be in the episode description as well. 

Before we round out this conversation, is there anything else you would like to tell listeners?

ANGELA 

NAO  

So though they feel disappointed, because they wanted to collab with an enterprise and it didn’t go as planned, they still think that collaboration is key to change because it’s a common cause. And there’s power in unity. So they know that a circular economy goes beyond money and economic state. 

And the example that Angela puts it’s that they have created a really strong bond with SomeOfUs. And they know because of this, collaboration actually works. 

For example, right now, Desierto Vestidio is making a workshop of upcycling from a designer from the community that went to — she went to Kansas to learn about upcycling, and now she’s given the workshop, again, reinforcing the collaboration between Desierto Vestido and other organizations.

ELIZABETH 

Amazing. I love that. Collaboration is so key to driving change. And, Laura, is there anything else that you would like to share with listeners that we haven’t covered yet?

LAURA 

Maybe not. I really loved what Angela said. I mean, I think that’s also part of the work we do at SumOfUs. We really tried to highlight the global aspect of these issues. I think sometimes it’s like you hear about something happening in Chile, and it’s like, how is that relevant to me? You know, I’m so far away from it. 

But yeah, I think it’s just kind of learning more about the global structures that are producing this and how and the direct impact you’re having, you know, and you’re buying a t-shirt, which you might not be even aware of, and yeah, and that you’re affecting someone’s daily life. 

And yeah, I think that just also echoing the collaborative aspect of it and encouraging people to maybe go beyond what they read on mainstream media and look for organization, local organizations doing this kind of work because they’re the ones experiencing the reality like Desierto Vestido, so we were very fortunate that we were able to have this partnership.

MUSIC

ELIZABETH  

And that is *almost* a wrap for this episode. So you all know that I always ask guests at the end what a better future for fashion would look like to them. And for this interview, there were some audio issues at the end so I’ll just share a bit about what Angela shared. 

Angela was saying that a better future for fashion is one that manages its waste better, and changes its designs to incorporate waste so that designers see the solution in the problem. (Which I couldn’t have said it better myself! I think that is beautiful.)

And Angela also continued that designs in fashion can be improved so that there isn’t any waste — in the meantime, it’s important that we find ways to use waste in designs. And that’s what Desierto Vestido is doing — making people aware of the waste and of all of the things that can be done with this waste, perhaps before it’s even waste.  

So I hope that you found this episode as powerful and informative as I did. And that it inspired you towards activating change. The link to sign the petition to Chilean president Gabriel Boric is in the show notes. 

And an action that I would add is to start asking questions to charity shops, textile recyclers, and fashion brands with take-back programs. We need more transparency in the secondhand clothing trade and in this “circular” fashion movement.

We can’t just take it at face value when there’s a textile recycling bin or a big fashion brand advertising a take-back program and you can get 20% off if you send in your old stuff. Just as brands aren’t transparent about how and where their clothes are being made, we also know that fashion brands are not being transparent about where these clothes that they’re taking back are going either.

And while we can definitely do our part in being more thoughtful about how we re-home our clothing personally, and that’s an important step. I would say the first step. If it’s not something that you’ve considered before, I invite you to start to think about that. 

And instead of just putting a bunch of clothing in a garbage bag and dropping it off at a charity shop, really trying to mindfully rehome pieces and trying to recirculate them locally since the global secondhand trade is really exploitative and completely opaque, really.

So that said, of course, the most reliable way of actually being able to hold these mega-corporations and huge charities (that in some cases operate as corporations) to account is legislation for things like reducing overproduction (fashion brands shouldn’t be able to produce that much stuff!)

Also not allowing or restricting secondhand exports that get dumped on other countries. Because we know that the countries receiving these imports, some of them have tried to ban the imports from the Global North and unfortunately were unable to do so. Listen to episode 31 for more on that.

But in terms of legislation also investing more in circular practices like mending & repair, secondhand & swapping, upcycling, and real textile recycling machinery as a last resort if those other options are not possible.

So that was a lot. But really we have to start at the source and just significantly reduce production. Like if we do one thing, that’s what it should be.

I mean, if you think about, if you have a leak in your house and it’s flooded with water, what do you do first? Do you take buckets of water and scoop the water on the floor and dump it out the window, or do you find the source of the leak and stop that first if you can? You can take the buckets of water and take them out but if the water is still coming out, it’s not really helping that much.

And that’s basically what we have with fashion’s waste crisis, right? There’s a lot of talk about textile recycling machinery and this recycled material, and this recycled material. That’s fine, that’s good but if we’re not addressing overproduction, that stuff is not solving the problem because you’re just creating more of the problem as your somewhat creating the solution. So I think getting to the source, stopping the overproduction has got to be the first step!

But I seem to be going on a lot of rants in this episode.

For more on the complexities of the secondhand clothing trade, tune in to episode 31 with Nikissi Serumaga, who is the co-host of VINTAGE OR VIOLENCE, and you’ll hear Nikissi unpack the reality of secondhand clothes in Uganda. So that is episode 31.

Okay everyone, that’s all I have for you today. If you want more sustainable fashion content, follow us @consciousstyle on Instagram or subscribe to our free weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit. You can sign up for that at consciouslfieandstyle.com/edit. 

In this newsletter has plenty of educational resources and news for staying up to date on the sustainable fashion industry.

Alright, I will see you again next Tuesday for another episode of the podcast — or on Saturday in your inbox if you’re a subscriber. Make sure to follow this show on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss next week’s episode. Take care and bye for now!

The post Behind Fashion’s Waste Crisis in the Atacama Desert appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

And that is the power imbalance between big fashion brands and the suppliers they source from that puts nearly all of the financial risk onto the manufacturers. 

And if we want to really address things like exploited labor, excessive overtime, inhumane wages, poor safety conditions, this is something that we absolutely cannot leave out of the conversation. 

So, we’re talking about it.

In this episode, we’re going to get a glimpse into the world of a manufacturer that works with small, mission driven fashion brands.

I will be talking with Arjen Laan, the CEO of Pactics, a sustainability-minded manufacturing company focused on building longer-term partnerships with conscious brands instead of short-terms sales.

And Arjen is sharing his perspectives, from a supplier side of things, on audits, certifications, and even compliance legislation. 

He’s also talking about the power imbalances between brands and suppliers (particularly, big brands), as well as the imbalance of financial risk and how that leads to a lot of the poor conditions we see at factories today, and the differences between working with smaller brands versus larger companies. 

There’s a lot of great insights in this episode that gave me some really important food for thought when it comes to how we can really build a better future for fashion. 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

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Read the Transcript From This Interview:

ARJEN 

What makes Pactics different is always a bit difficult to say that about the company you work for of course.

But I think there’s a few things that sets us a little bit apart and it is that we are a relatively small company. So we have 5-600 employees, while, most manufacturers have 1000s, or more 2000, 3000. So we have a little bit of more of a human scale in that sense. 

We also don’t have a headquarters, the headquarters is actually in the factory, you could say. So that means that all the services we provide are on one location. What you see often is that manufacturers have multiple factories and then head over somewhere in Singapore or Hong Kong or whatever.

And that there is a kind of a distinct between the operations and where the dishes are made. And as we are in the factory as well, we can very quickly act and assess the situation and, and make sure that we do the right thing for our customer. 

And we try to set an environment that is really nice for people to work in. So it’s very clean, it’s open. There is natural lights, there’s natural ventilation. We have a daycare, we have literacy classes, we provide a good meal for our workers. So we try to make the total work circumstances as good as possible. 

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. And reading about Pactics on your website, something that I found really interesting was that Pactics formerly worked with some of the biggest luxury brands in the world. But today, you’re actually more focused on working with smaller, mission-driven brands. 

So can you speak about why Pactics decided to make this shift and what the difference is that you’ve found working with bigger brands versus smaller brands?

ARJEN  

Yeah, we started… So basically, Pactics originally need was depending basically on one company that has lots of licenses from big brands. And that creates an enormous dependency. And with the big brands, it’s a little bit top down, let’s say they tell you exactly what you have to do for what price is. 

There is very little space for a conversation to get things. Let’s say, spread the risk, let’s put it that way. So it’s all it’s the pyramid, it’s top down in that sense. So we focused on smaller brands, because it makes the power difference much smaller. 

Within a big corporation, I will talk with the purchase officer. Well, if you work with smaller brands, most of the time you also deal with the owner or the CEO. So you can make much easier decisions on all kinds of things that really matter. And that includes prices, costing for transportation changes, that has to be made things that go wrong that needs a solution. 

And within the big brands, that compensation is only one way. So everything that happens is basically always the manufacturer’s responsibility. And we have to absorb those costs. 

And the smaller brands, certainly those that really share the same values. And I always say it’s not only the shareholders value, but it’s also the values about how you want to run the company, how you take care of your employees, how do you want to manage the stocks, how you want to decrease waste? All those — how do you want to look for better solutions to pack your products or whatever that is? 

These are all important values for us to look at. And with smaller brands, they’re much more open for these kinds of things, and see if there is a solution for a problem we have. So we have seen this specifically, of course, during the Covid period where the smaller clients were actually much more flexible in trying to find a solution than the bigger brands.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And let’s talk more about what happened with COVID with the order cancellations and delayed payments and all that. Because the pandemic really just exposed the cracks that were already there in the system and the power imbalances between big fashion brands and factories that has long been there. 

So could you speak more about what happened at the start of the pandemic with the delayed payments, order cancellations, and sort of how the payment terms were before then that led to or partially led to the situation that we saw during covid?

ARJEN  

Again, there, you have a big difference in the bigger brands and the smaller brands. For the bigger brands, there are payment terms up to 120 or 150 days, end of month, you can get your money earlier, but then you have to organize factoring. So basically, you have to pay money to get your money. 

At the end of the month, if you sent the invoice, then there is a basically a financial institution in between which already pays the bill and then later to be paid by the brand. 

So that is the kind of a standard it’s everything is based on forecasts and then actually orders. 

So as we are in Cambodia, the lead time for products are a little bit longer, because all the materials we have to acquire are coming from China. So there is a bit of a delay compared to those manufacturers in China, because they can get it next door. And we still have to ship it so and then bring it to Siem Reap, make it and bring it and transport it back. So that will add one-two weeks at least on time. So forecasting, in that sense is extremely important to have enough materials in house. So you buy materials based on that forecast. 

For three, four months out, at least, make sure you have enough stock in the warehouse, that there’s enough stock audit that suppliers, suppliers are ready for shipments. And that all has to be financed, of course, so when suddenly the situation changes, you have a lot of stock sitting there. And from one day to another, basically, the orders dropped by 60% You still have all your workers, because that’s also based on the older forecast. And we don’t have a lot of flexible workers, older people we have or most of them are in just they have a fixed contracts. 

So your cost remains the same actually. But certainly, there is a giant drop in what is actually taken out of the warehouse in different parts of the of the world as we produce it in Cambodia, and then we bring it to either China, Europe or the states where the customer can take it up. 

So there was a big change suddenly and let’s say the communication for the bigger brands was very little about what was going on. Because all the shops were closed and there was no sales anymore in the US and Europe. 

Basically, it all stopped a little bit for the first couple of months and then it slowly recovered. But basically, we had to deal with yet at that big difference in forecast and in what was actually happening. So, basically, we have to absorb the cost, everything what was there the two three months, you have to see if you can, you can go through. 

It was very different with the smaller brands where we immediately also had contact with of course see what was happening and we tried to figure out different possibilities to make the situation as good as possible. And that worked much better. So there was much better and intense communication in that whole period. And understanding also what it meant to have basically a company being out of work from one day to another, so that was the big difference.

ELIZABETH

Yeah. So, you’re quoted in a Vogue Business article talking about how that there is this, like consumer perception that poor labor and environmental practices are the result of irresponsible or unethical suppliers, rather than the price pressure and other actions taken by brands. 

So why do you think that there is this misconception and people have this idea that it’s suppliers or factories that are the ones to blame for social or environmental issues?

ARJEN  

Well a couple of reasons, I mean if you read the newspaper or listen to today’s news, it’s also about factories that do the bad things, bad working conditions, unsafe, et cetera, et cetera. And the brands always say, we didn’t know. And we do audits, and we’re okay. So it’s also, it’s always like, taking no responsibility whatsoever. 

And I think very little people realize actually, what is going on on a bigger scale, and that is that the financial risk is completely with the supplier, so and I talk again with bigger brands. Smaller brands is a different situation. With the bigger brands, the financial risk is completely with the supplier, or at least they try to push it as much as possible down.

I can tell you that the last five years, we didn’t have an increase on our prices for we would have been a bit of a big brand. So as of 2017, is exactly the same price. We produce then and now. Because they said we’re still too expensive, basically that is the main message. While I know they make reasonable profits, or very good profits, but that is the bottom line. 

So the perception is that the suppliers are the bad guys. And the brands are the good guys. They have a very good marketing machine of course. The brand is basically a marketing concept. And they can spend a lot of money on communication and how well they do. 

But the real problem is that there is inequality on the financial risk. If you pay 150 days, end of month, then basically as a supplier, you have to find solutions to get the cash flow going because we have to pay every two weeks, if you suddenly can cancel orders without any reason or any extra payment. The supplier is stuck with all those materials and the people he has on the bailiff.  

So this whole system is much bigger than just the bad guy and the good guys who wants to do good. It is really about how the system is working. And who is taking responsibility for what and it is, I think unfair for brands always to pinpoint, and put everything on the suppliers, including all the audits and all the things that come with it. Well, there is very little reflection on why it is. 

And let’s be clear, there are good suppliers and there are bad suppliers and for sure there are suppliers who try to squeeze people and have very bad working conditions. 

That is what is happening everywhere. That is not only in manufacturing, but I think there’s also a lot of companies that try to do really good, but they have to be very creative. And sometimes they cannot do the maintenance because the cash is not there. 

Cash flow is the biggest challenge. And if there’s no continuity on the financial flow and suddenly, things happen, uncertainties that had to be managed, of course money most of the time, and there’s no compensation for it, then you get into a very difficult situation. 

So it is all about do we all take a bit of the risk, and how do we distribute that risk over the total supply chain from the beginning till the end.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And when you talked about payment terms, it reminded me of a previous interview that I did with Amanda of Clotheshorse podcast, who was a buyer in the fast fashion industry. And she talked about these really crazy long payment terms. 

And it just doesn’t even make any sense. Like, what 150 days, I think you said, I mean, that’s, that’s almost half a year, that’s almost six months, I mean, that’s just, that’s a crazy amount of time to wait to get paid for something that you already paid the costs for. You already paid for the materials and the labor and you’re waiting almost 6 months to get any payment from the brands.

ARJEN  

Yeah, we sometimes say we feel a little bit like a bank. That goes basically we have the bank for the brands, because we… it’s not only waiting for your money, six months after you deliver something, but again, we have to buy the materials three, four months in advance. So in total, sometimes you finance eight, nine months of the total supply chain, and the ordinary consumer is not aware of it. 

And if that ordinary consumer is going to a shop of a big brand, he gets the article on yesterday, immediately, otherwise, he doesn’t get that specific item. But basically, that that brand hasn’t paid yet, for that item, him or herself, if you understand what I mean, it still, the invoice to the supplier still needs to be paid. 

And it’s an incredible long, long timeline. Again, in the supply chain, because it takes a long time to make something, ship something, and get it actually in the shop. But financially also, of course, it’s a long timeline. 

And there is, with the big brands, there’s very little movement, it seems that it’s going to be changing now a little bit. I think more and more people are starting to be aware. 

Instead of talking only about the bad suppliers, I think the consumer also start asking what are your payment terms to your supplier? And how do you let’s say deal with it if suddenly things change? And do you still request that the supplier is paying for everything? 

I give you another example just lately, there’s new legislation in Europe for a print on every packaging that contains what exactly it contains in terms of material, and it’s good or bad for the environment and so on. That is a new legislation. 

And that means that we have to print all kinds of new packaging and stuff. And the only, that is this is a bit unforeseen, it’s certainly not in calculated into the prices and what the brand says you have to take that cost because we’re not going to pay for it. It’s your responsibility. And there’s even not a suggestion to say okay, we understand that is an extra cost, maybe we should share that cost. 

The same is for logistical cost and but I don’t  know if you’re aware, but the logistical cost went up enormously container and it was let’s say $2- $3,000 max to the US pre-COVID is now around $14, $15,000. And we had to back with a big brands to come forward with a kind of a deal on how to share the cost. And you can imagine that if our cost per container is going up from 2 to $15,000, that is eating a lot of our profits. 

So that pushes you of course into all kinds of situations you don’t want and if you really want to keep your company going then you start to be creative and you think about outsourcing, you postpone maintenance, which is maybe necessary, and so on and all. And then you create also unsafe and not so nice situations. So there is a direct link between that financial risk and the distribution of that financial risk and the situations we see in the factories.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you can see how factories can be pushed to the point of okay well either we go bankrupt, we close down, or we cut some corners and try to stay in business.

ARJEN  

Exactly, exactly, yeah. And shutting down your business first of all is not so easy, secondly it’s quite the thing, I mean, you have five or six hundred people, that also gives a certain responsibility. So you want to keep it open, of course, as long as possible put all of time and money and energy in it. 

So it is not an easy decision to shut it down. And it also it doesn’t solve the problem on itself. And because it will continue in a way, because the brands will go to another factory and do exactly the same. And this is how this whole cheap labor carousel is basically functioning. 

Of course, at the moment, that’s the manufacturer is getting pushed to the limit, and really needs a price increase, otherwise, you cannot survive. They say, why are you getting too expensive, let’s go to Ethiopia, or let’s go to Bangladesh. And that is how that cheap labor production is moving around in certain areas, and people started opening a factory in another country. So that is something we want to move away from. 

And so let’s talk positive as well, because that’s why we are looking for clients who also appreciate what we are doing, and want to pay a little bit extra for the services we provide. And for the environments we create for our workers, we have a couple of clients that came in first time in a factory saying, Wow, this is a nice place, this is exactly how we would have imagined that the factory should look like. And we always take that as a compliment. 

And it’s hard work to do it like that. But at the same time also not very expensive, it’s not much more expensive, it’s a little bit more expensive. Because we have a very green environment with trees and small lake and all those kinds of things. And we have the canteen where we provide food and we have the daycare and we have the literacy classes. And of course, that costs money.

But it’s not that it’s it makes it much much more expensive, it’s a little bit more expensive to create decent work or working environment for people who were sitting behind the sewing machine all day basically. 

So unfortunately, there are more and more brands also that take that into account who want to see the manufacturer as an extension of their brand instead of only somebody who produces and squeezed surprise and try to sell it as much as possible.

ELIZABETH  

Right, I feel like for a lot of big brands, their solution is just to have these audits, instead of investing that effort in visiting the factories, developing the relationships with their suppliers, they just sort of have these audits and call it a day. But we know that’s obviously not enough. So what’s your take on audits?

ARJEN  

Let’s say there’s a couple of levels where you can look at it. First of all, as a factory we have a couple of certifications. And that certification stands for social compliance, there’s a lot of ISO, so that is the whole thing how you manage your company communication, how you deal with your things go wrong, and so on. So we have everything in place. 

So if we get an audit most of the time there’s nothing so it’s a completely useless exercise if they know a little bit about the content of those certificates, they will say that that should be good enough but okay, I can imagine that sometimes you want a bit of certainty yourself. 

But I got often request if I can sign this and this which is basically a very thin piece of paper and our certification is much much better actually and covers much more areas than that request from the brand so I always feel yeah, it’s a bit of a paper tiger kind of thing and just want to check the box. So we are okay. So if something happens, the supplier signed so we are covered. 

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, it covers them, like it covers their liability. Like if something were to come up I often see that brands will be like, Well, no, because our supplier signed this code of conduct that they wouldn’t outsource and they can kind of clean their hands of it.

ARJEN  

Exactly. But if you don’t pay and you don’t have the flexibility, let’s say if you to suddenly cancel orders or whatever and as a company, you kind of have the flexibility to have more or less workers in one month, time can be two, three of the people are different. 

So the biggest challenge, actually, what I did find out of a factory is to have work for everybody every day. If you have 600 people and your orders are going up and down, of course, it’s a challenge to make sure that everybody is productive and generates enough money basically, that would cover his salary. That is at least the big challenge. 

So if you have a very flexible order policy, you can cancel every time you force actually a factory into having things outsourced because that is the only way you can manage that financial risk. So but yeah, and there’s a Apotex, I wouldn’t outsource but the root cause of the outsourcing is not that the supplier is trying to, to do that because the supplier, you don’t like that so much outsourcing, actually. Because it’s also a lot of extra hassles, but it’s pushed by, again, the payment terms. 

So to come back to the audit, so audits are good, of course, I mean, it’s nice to be and also good to be checked every now and then. But every brand wants his own audit. And we have two, three people, who are nearly full-time busy with kind of audits, and receiving the people and going through all the paperwork and check again. 

And then you have two or three minor nonconformities. And that is that the fire extinguisher was not 40 centimeters from the door, but 60, and these kinds of things. I mean, there’s, and of course, I don’t say it is completely useless. But I think they’re one size fits all. And the last time the big brands visited me was more than five years ago. 

So basically there’s no real relationship, in that sense with the factory, and seeing what is going on. I think it would be much better if the one responsible for the sourcing in the brand that is visiting the factory regularly. Deal with the management, see how they react on certain situations, discuss the difficulties, find the solutions, because there’s always problems, there’s always all kinds of problems. 

There is ordering too much material because the forecast was too high, they’re still products finished that has not been taken off yet because the market change. There is all kinds of quality issues, there’s always something and there’s enough to discuss about. And when you do that regularly, every six months or whatever, first of all, you build a relationship, you see what is going on, you can see how the factory is actually dealing with these kinds of situations. 

And I realized the last two years, of course, because COVID was all pretty impossible. So I blame nobody for that. But again, the last time I saw a big brand was more than five years ago. So it is that attitude, actually. You’re just an extension of a production thing you need to deliver and the price has to be right. And that’s it. And I think that doesn’t create the right environment on the long term.

So it’s not a partnership, it is really a power imbalance. And the audits are part of that. 

ELIZABETH  

Yeah.

ARJEN  

Just check, we check if you do everything. All right. That is basically the message. And we also tell you what is right. Because it’s not always easy to operate the company in a completely different environment. And it’s very easy to sit in your office in whatever Europe or the US and tell what is good and what is bad. But if you come and work here, sometimes there’s a little bit more nuance to it. And often that is not completely recognized.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, yeah, that completely makes sense. And I really appreciate your perspective on the audits: the good and the bad. 

And I am also very curious to hear your take on certifications, because you mentioned that Pactics does have some certifications. So what do you think the role of certifications are from the side of a manufacturer?

ARJEN  

For us it is to create basically a framework in which we operate so it makes things clear, it gives us a structure on how to deal with all kinds of situations and make your standard operating procedures and so on. It tells you how to calculate the wages, how to communicate the wages, how to deal with all kinds of situations. 

In the social area, let’s say human resources, worker representatives, unions, whatever, so it is very helpful. So that the state is good, it gives you that framework. And that on itself should be a kind of a guarantee for the brands to say okay, they have that in order. Because this certification has to be renewed. So there’s also audits for that you’re checked on it. 

But every brand wants its own certification. Right? So and there’s many, many different certifications. So as a manufacturer, just a moment, you have to decide a little bit which certifications are useful and which are not so useful. 

Now we opted for SA8000, which is a social compliance thing and that’s we did that in the early 2010. So 12 or 13 countries, and we’re exactly because we thought it was a very good framework. 

Unfortunately, it is not really recognized. In Europe, there are some companies that know it, but in the US, it’s completely unknown. So well, it’s a very good framework, I think it’s very strong, and it helps us a lot. And it helps us a lot because we never have any issue with external audits in that sense. 

But it is not the brands are like, Oh, wow, that’s interesting. Let’s have a look at it. Let’s study what that exactly means. Is it okay? If you have that, an audit is not needed on those kind of areas. You could say, Okay, we skip the social part, we only look maybe at the environmental part or other parts now. Still, for audits needs to be done. 

And so there is you have the certification, but basically to the outside world it’s not always very useful, unless it’s something that they know. So that is basically the situation on certifications, and you can have 10 certifications, and then another customer is coming here and saying that’s all nice, but I want you to have that certification!

ELIZABETH  

Oh man! So it sounds like though we should all get to know the SA8000 certification a little bit better. 

ARJEN

I think so yeah.

ELIZABETH  

And you say it even helped you. Did it guide you on and what you’ll prioritize?

ARJEN  

Yeah, it’s all about basically it’s a, again it’s social compliance. So it lays out what you have to do to be a fair employer. And it’s all about communication about wages, how the wages are going to be calculated, you have to train your people also show they can follow how this is calculated, they can do it basically themselves. 

It is, again, organizations of the workers representative, it’s unions, it’s about how you deal with labor law, it’s about how you deal with if there is any, let’s say misbehavior, misconduct, so it covers the total area actually of social compliance with a lot of communication and training with it. 

So it helped us a lot in that sense to shape the company as it is and all the on with audits, we never have a big problems there because we have everything in place. It’s a very good framework. It’s also worked. It’s serious work. We have one person that is basically only looking at these kinds of things, and making sure we have everything in place and all the paperwork is done and all the communication is done and everybody’s involved and so on. So it takes effort, but it’s also worthwhile.

ELIZABETH 

Okay, yeah. And just to clarify: all of these certifications, are you paying, is Pactics paying for these outright 100%? Is the manufacturer paying for all of these certifications?

ARJEN  

Yup, our own certifications we pay for. And then the audits are normally paid for by the brand unless you are non-compliance, let’s say you have, if there’s an audit, then you gotta report, if you have serious non-compliance issue, you have to improve that. 

And if there’s a then a second audit, to check if you did improve, if you don’t improve, most of the time, they want you to pay. We never were in that kind of situation, so that never happened to us. But having all those audits again, also, it takes a lot of time and energy. It doesn’t come for free, we don’t have to pay for it. But I still have to pay the people working on those audits and working with the auditors to make that work, used to most of the time, take two, three days at least.

ELIZABETH  

Okay, yeah, that’s really interesting to know. Because just on an individual level, like a consumer, buying a shirt off a rack, it’s like, you really just don’t realize all these things that go into the process. 

And to go back to something you said before, with the delayed payment terms. It’s sort of wild to think about, especially with how fast the fast fashion cycle is now, a shopper might literally buy like a dress from some fast fashion brand, wear it, toss it, and the supplier would have still not gotten paid for that if I understand that correctly —

ARJEN

Yeah, that’s technically possible I think, yeah.

ELIZABETH  

I know that’s a little off track. But I was just thinking about that with our previous discussion on payment terms, and just sort of realizing that and how crazy that is.

But anyhow, good to get us back on track here. When we talk about audits, and certifications, I think a lot of people in the sustainable fashion space are starting to see the limitations of this and many are pointing to legislation as the solution or a solution. 

But something I wanted to bring in that you said earlier was how that legislation can sometimes put the costs on the manufacturer and not on the brand. 

And I think that’s not obviously the original goal of the legislation. I think it really is to get at the brands, but it falls short. And how do you think that we can avoid that with future legislation? Because there’s a lot coming up environmentally and socially, for more action from fashion. But how do we make sure that the costs of further compliance don’t land on suppliers and the brands get to avoid that… again? 

ARJEN  

Again, you have to include the costs for that, the costs to get compliance or to be up to certain environmental standards. You have to say in the legislation something about how that cost is going to be distributed. 

Because otherwise what brands will do is say that this is suppliers. We just want the products in our store, who are completely compliant with whatever European or US legislation. And you’re at a manufacturing, so you have to make sure it’s okay. That is basically what they, the message they give you. 

And these costs can go up considerably, of course, and if there is no in that legislation, there is not a let’s say guidance on how those costs should be distributed, I think we ended up with the same situation that everything has to change, and the supplier has to pay for it. 

ELIZABETH

Mhm yeah.

ARJEN

And as you can use these big brands, I think smaller brands, they think completely differently. Sometimes they even one thing is a little bit already before the legislation and they are happy to pay for it. 

And also, I also have different conversation with the smaller brands. Well, actually we don’t want plastic bags anymore. We want you to make bags that we can reuse. They pay for it. It’s not a problem. It’s completely different kind of thing.

So they are already ahead of the legislation actually, because intrinsically they think it is important themselves not because it is legislations. Brands will wait for legislations to come. And then they implement. And that is a bit the green marketing, of course, and all those kinds of things. But I don’t think they have intrinsically the environmental issues in their scope, they have to because if you don’t you’re out of business, basically.

If you don’t use the word sustainable nowadays, then you’re done. So it’s a completely useless word, I think, in the meantime. And because it doesn’t say anything — everybody can say sustainable, and probably 80% of the things are not sustainable. 

So what is sustainability then exactly? And there’s also something like financial sustainability, and where did that comes in? And there’s environmental, there’s social, there’s all these elements of sustainability, and it’s a little bit more complex, and just be nice for the environment. 

It’s all about getting the total scope. And that is what we are doing with the smaller brands, we’re looking at the total supply chain and see what kind of alternatives are there? What is better? What are the pros, what are the cons? What kind of new techniques on dyeing? What kind of new techniques on printing that are much better, that create less waste? 

How can we optimize the use of the fabrics? Can we optimize the products in such a way that we have less waste? Can we reduce the order quantity so the MOQ, so you don’t have too much in stock, but it’s easy to reorder, as we know, 20, 30% of the fashion is never used. So that’s if you  start to imagine how much money and energy that cost, then it is much better to focus on these kinds of things than just put a print on a packaging, you understand what I mean? 

It’s all there’s a lot of nonsense going on, actually, which looks very nice to the outside world, but actually doesn’t have a big impact. So as long as legislation really makes sense, and gives guidance to that total process, including the financial responsibilities of each partner, then it makes sense. And otherwise, it’s just another burden, I would say. 

ELIZABETH  

Mhm. And so you have a much more balanced, stronger partnership with smaller brands, as you mentioned. And yeah, it goes beyond just meeting the bare minimums of these audits, you know, checking boxes, and doing all these things because of legislation, but really working together to create a more sustainable product, yeah, as you said, the sustainable word is definitely overused. 

But in any case, what in your mind is a stronger brand supplier relationship? Like what does that look like in practice? What are the key elements?

ARJEN  

I think the key elements is that you share the same values, actually, and that you’re completely transparent about certain things. It’s a partnership, and like every partnership, you have to give and take, and you can not only take, because when things go wrong, that’s in every relationship you have. 

In the end, the other one will either not survive or will go somewhere else. Right? So… but the most important thing is to make sure you’re aligned on a couple of things and how you want to deal with the people, how you want to have the products produced, which way to go, where to look at new materials that have lesser impact, ways of transportation, ways of packaging… all those kinds of things.

So, it is that total concept that you have to discuss with each other. And try to optimize. And with the smaller brands, that is a much easier conversation because most of them that is the reason why they are there is that they want these kinds of products that have less impact on the environment and a good impact on the social environment. So, it is a completely different starting point.

Well, if there’s only shareholder value, that’s only money that counts. And at least at the end of the quarter, the numbers have to look right. So, it is that, that big difference, I think,

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. Yeah and we can see it with the, when the big brands pull in these tens of millions, or maybe even billion in profit, and the same ones that were canceling orders in the pandemic, delaying payment terms, notorious for just not paying their suppliers, and therefore, the workers making their clothes fairly — it’s just a matter of priorities.

And the smaller, mission-driven brands just have it at their core, it’s what they stand for, it’s what they care about. and that’s key. 

ARJEN

Exactly, yeah.

ELIZABETH

So can you tell listeners what you are currently working on at Pactics to try to rebalance the brand supplier partnership?

ARJEN  

Yeah, what we are trying to do at the moment is to do specific marketing on those smaller clients. So we want to reach out to those brands, who we think a little bit with us and think, not necessarily like us, but because you can have a different scope, but at least want to have the conversation on how you can make things better, more clever. 

And use the expertise we have. And we can use the expertise they have. And it’s not a one way street. But so we are targeting specific companies that shared the same values as I mentioned earlier, that only certain regions that showed it are really busy with the same themes as we that are basically proud where the products are being made, and also share that on their website.

So a couple of brands we work with, we are basically we have a there’s a small YouTube picture where you can see our factory and so they see us as an extension of. That is where we are looking for and that we are targeting and trying to get in touch with so if you’re one of them, please feel free to contact with saying.

ELIZABETH  

And of course, the insuring healthy safe working conditions, and treating your employees fairly, and making sure they have benefits and are fairly compensated, and just all of that is truly incredible.

And I do hope that any brands listening, who are looking for manufacturers, will take note.

And I also wanted to touch on something you mentioned earlier with MOQs or minimum order quantities, and so can you tell us how you are enabling lowers MOQs, or minimum order quantities, and how that minimizes waste?

ARJEN  

Like I said, it is known that in bigger factories, you have to order for example at least 5000 pieces of something and of those 5,000, first of all that’s for the retailer, quite an investment to buy 5000 pieces, and then he has to make sure that he sells it. So what we’re looking for and again this is for the smaller brands is to look to make the MOQ as low as possible. 

Of course there’s a minimum, but let’s say that for certain bags or something like that we do it as of 500 pieces. With the standard factory, you don’t have to come with an order of 500 pieces, but we will have a look at it. 

And it’s yes it’s a little bit more expensive, of course, to make 500 bags because the efficiency is lower and also the MOQ for material is most of the time higher than the 500 so you pay a little bit more on the material. 

But still, it’s a big difference, of course, if you just have to buy 500 pieces of something or 5000, also in the cash flow of your own company. And we want to develop a system where you easily can reorder. So if there’s a high runner, okay, it’s easy to reorder and you don’t have to throw out or throw it away or give it away, whatever you have to do with it when you don’t sell your product as a retailer. But you really just have in stock what you need, and try to be as efficient as possible. 

And I think that has a huge environmental impact as well. And then if you make use of recycled or upcycled, material and even add to that, so that is a bit the way we think we can also help retailers, brands with yeah, doing just don’t have too much stock that you have to throw away and just throw away money as well, because that’s also a huge environmental impact.

So again, and then different techniques of printing allows you also sometimes to do that, we have a very sophisticated printing technique that allows us to do very low MOQ instead of dying the tuition or dying, where you have to die at least 5000 kilos in a big washing machine and a lot of water involved and the overspill of the water is full with paint and it goes into filtration system, and it’s a very inefficient and probably also not very environmentally friendly way of dying. 

And there are much better ways they’re a little bit more expensive, not that crazy expensive, a little bit more expensive, but have a much bigger impact on our direct environment. So these are the kinds of solutions we try to work on. 

ELIZABETH  

Mhm, yeah. Yeah because the high minimums are known as a main cause of textile waste. Brands will order more clothes and they know what to do with to meet these minimums and it adds up very quickly. 

So thank you Arjen, for sharing so much with us today in this conversation. Where can listeners find out more and connect with Pactics? 

ARJEN  

We have a website, so pactics.com and you also find my contact details. Send me an email and I’ll be in touch with you happy to discuss anything that you would like to discuss.

ELIZABETH  

Cool. And I do have one final question for you that I asked all guests that come on the show. And that is what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

ARJEN  

Yeah, that’s a big question. But I think I answered that question a little bit already. And that is that the brands and the suppliers work much more together to try to figure out what is the best way for both parties to optimize the use of material resources and get to reasonable pricing. 

And we should try to get away I think from the cheap, cheap, and lots and lots, but much more consciously decide what we’re going to make and what we are going to sell. And I think if that is a kind of a decent conversation, I think we make at least one step in a good direction. 

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for this episode with Arjen Laan of Pactics. I hope you enjoy this episode and got something out of it. This conversation was definitely perspective-shifting for me, we really don’t hear much from the manufacturer or supplier side in fashion. So I think that this was a really valuable conversation.

And if you know someone who would also find it interesting please send it their way or screenshot this episode and share it over in your Instagram stories. You can find me and this podcast @consciousstyle and I would love to know what you thought about this episode. 

You can also DM me, I do my best to check my DMs, it might take a little while but I do really enjoy hearing from you. 

And this is actually the last episode of the season which is bittersweet because I thoroughly enjoyed every conversation this season but I’m also looking forward to a little bit of a break before we dive into season 4.

Season 4 is going to be a big one. We’re diving into a really huge topic, one that feels very complex but I’m working on bringing on guests and developing topics and conversations that break it down in a much more manageable and accessible way. 

So season 4 is going to be focused on post growth and the possibilities for a slower fashion industry. And I’m not gonna get too much into the details of what that all means and how that’s gonna work with a podcast because I’m still flushing out the details. But if you want to be the first to know what to expect in the next season definitely subscribe to my newsletter, The Conscious Edit. You can sign up at www.consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit and the link is also in the show notes.

And in this weekly newsletter, I share articles I’m reading in the sustainable fashion space, as well as podcasts or brands, campaigns I’m supporting, and various things like that you know whatever’s top of mind that particular week. And subscribers also get access to a free 10-page list of sustainable fashion resources to support you on your journey as a little welcome gift. So again that is at www.consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit and the link is in the show notes.

So I hope to see you over there or on Instagram, but if not, I will see you when we pick back up for season 4 of the podcast in a couple of weeks. Thank you so much for tuning in today, bye for now!

About Arjen

Originally trained as a nurse, Arjan joined Medecins Sans Frontieres, eventually becoming responsible for their worldwide Human Resources department. He then got an MBA and made the switch to the profit sector. At 50, Arjen decided to make a shift back into the NGO sector. In 2017, Arjen joined Pactics as their CEO.

About Pactics

Historically producing for the world’s biggest luxury brands, today Pactics focuses on sharing their expertise with smaller, mission-driven brands with aligned values. As a privately owned company, Pactics believes in fostering long-term relationships with their brand partners and their employees, rather than seeking short-term sales.

Connect with Pactics:

Pactics Website

Arjen’s Email 

The post Are Better Brand-Supplier Relationships The Missing Link to Ethical Fashion? appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

What if when we looked at a product’s tag, it didn’t just say where it was made and which fibers it’s composed of, but shared if the makers of that garment or pair of sandals were making living wages and working in good conditions?

Or if you could see the carbon footprint and ecological impact of a pair of sneakers and how it stacked up compared to other sneakers on the shelf?

Well, today we are going to envision that future with Matt Stockamp, the Sustainability Lead at Nisolo. 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts

Or, watch this interview on YouTube! (coming soon)

Read the Transcript From This Interview:

MATT
You know, I never saw myself getting into the fashion industry, I come from a background in anthropology and international business. Fashion was never on my radar. And I really got passionate about it during college. 

So I went to school in the Bay Area at Santa Clara University, and got plugged into a fellowship opportunity after my junior year that sent me to India for three months.

And so I was working with an organization that’s now called Elevate, at the time they were called Good World Solutions. And they’re basically utilizing mobile phone technology to ask factory workers directly, you know, what are your wages like, what are working conditions like in the factory where you work, so that brands could have a much better sense of just what those conditions were like for their factory workers. 

So I got to spend three months there. And part of my research was also spending time with labor union leaders and learning about just the day in and day out realities of their work. 

And I’ll never forget, I spent a day outside of Bangalore, India, and I met a 21-year-old woman, I was 21 years old at the time as well. And she told me just so matter of factly, that I would never be able to achieve the aspirations I have for myself because of the low wage that I received from this factory. 

And she was working for fast fashion brands, and was very much receiving a wage that just didn’t meet her most basic needs. And that really moved my heart and got me interested in learning more about the issues of why is this the case? 

So I got back to school and started to research what the fashion industry looked like. 

And I immediately began to realize, you know, this is a massive industry. And I started to ask the question of why is a multi-trillion dollar industry holding 10s of millions of people, most of whom are young women around the world in poverty, and really began to realize that this was an issue of greed. 

I saw a finding that anywhere between, it’s an additional 1 to 4% of the price of a garments actually provide a living wage for workers. And so the industry certainly has those resources to pay for that, and that doesn’t. 

And so I started to look at brands that were doing things differently. And this was 2015. And I began to identify Nisolo, as a neat brand that was just doing things differently for the industry. 

Nisolo’s vision has always been to convince the fashion industry to value our planet and the people who make the clothes and shoes we wear, just as much as the industry values, the dollars of end consumers. And at the time, they had an internship available in the factory that we own and operate down in Trujillo, Peru, where we make shoes and accessories. 

There’s an internship available doing social impact measurement and programming. And so I was fortunate to get that internship and spend the first year of my career outside of college there in the factory, and then to since then kind of grow with the company as we’ve expanded to several factories in Mexico and really grown to have a significant social and environmental focus. 

So I’m now the sustainability lead at Nisolo. I always tell people that pretty much my job is to figure out who is behind our products, you know, at each stage of the value chain, and what can we be doing as a brand to support them and their dependents and help them thrive in their day to day lives? 

And then also, on the natural resources side of things what are the natural resources going into our products? And how can we be a responsible steward of the planet as well? And so that’s a yeah, just some quick background.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. And you started mentioning some of the sustainability criteria of Nisolo. But I would love to dive deeper into that, because in today’s conversation, we’re going to be talking a lot about Nisolo’s sustainability facts label. But before we do that, I think it would be really great to get some context on Nisolo’s approach to sustainability. So can you share a bit about that with us? 

MATT

Definitely. Yeah. For us, sustainability has always been something that must be addressed in a really holistic manner. And so rather than just focusing on people or the planet, we believe in the interconnectedness of social and environmental issues and the importance of addressing them in tandem. 

So last year, we really, for the first time, kind of built out our sustainability framework, which has five pillars that we operate within. And then in addition to each of those pillars, we’ve actually kind of set aside a minimum standard that we have as an expectation for ourselves and that an expectation that we also have other brands will adopt as well to move the industry forward. 

And so these five pillars I’ll say I’m really quickly and then I’ll go deeper into each one they’re people, planet, transparency, accountability, and ecosystem building. 

And so starting off with the first pillar of people, we want to be able to ensure that everyone in our supply chain has their needs met. And so as a bare minimum, we are actively pursuing 100% living wages that cover the basic needs of people within our supply chains. 

The second pillar of planet, we’re focused on actively pursuing 0% net carbon emissions through the reduction and offsetting of all of our carbon emissions. 

Thirdly, and transparency, we really believe that it’s all about progress over perfection, we want to be clear with all of our stakeholders, about our practices, we want to be able to share not only where we’re doing well, but really state where do we need to be improving. 

And so today’s conversation is going to be really focused around that, as the sustainability facts label is kind of the most transparent thing we’ve ever done as a business really sharing how we’re performing across the board on people and planet. The minimum kind of bare standard that we’re holding ourselves to, and that we hope the industry will adopt as well is when it comes to transparency as tracking and publicly sharing those core metrics that are tied to how people on the planet are treated. 

Fourthly, is accountability. Accountability is a huge one in the fashion industry, I know that this audience is really well versed in greenwashing and how much that has just really become a problem more recently, and so we’re seeking to elevate accountability by validating practices through reputable third party certifications. 

And so we’ve been a certified B Corp since 2017, where most of our leathers are also Leather Working Group certified. And we’re a proud Climate Neutral Certified Brand, as well. And so we’re also calling on others and then when it’s unavailable, and third party certification is unavailable, we’re self-evaluating and publishing our progress as well. 

And then the last pillar is ecosystem building. Nisolo is a Spanish word that actually means not alone. It’s a, it really communicates to us the importance of interdependence, recognizing that there are people behind everything that we wear and that everything we wear also connects us to the planet and the natural resources that are used for our clothing. And so we want to be advocating for a more equitable fashion industry by supporting changemakers and legislation as well, that protects and amplifies the rights of people on the planet. So that’s kind of the quick version of that framework. 

ELIZABETH

Yeah. And I’d love to explore the sort of last pillar of that framework a bit more. So Nisolo’s approach to sustainability goes beyond the brand itself. And your most recent and perhaps largest project today in this realm is the Sustainability Facts label. 

So can you tell us what exactly this label is all about? And what it aims to do what the goals are? 

MATT

Definitely, yeah, and this label has been a joy to work on. It is by far the biggest thing we’ve ever done as a brand. And we’ve been developing it now for several years. And I think, I think it’ll be interesting and helpful to share even before, kind of what it is, and what it looks like to share a little bit of the context of, of kind of why we did this and why we feel like it’s important. So I want to paint a broad picture of kind of the why to kick us off. 

So think about the phone in your hands right now, or the clothes that you’re wearing today. The car, you drive, if you drive a car, you know, from megabytes to miles per gallon, we know a lot about the products that we buy, and that we purchase kind of day to day, that almost nothing about the hundreds of hands that they touch, or the thousands of miles they travel before our products actually get to us. 

And so we as consumers largely were very much in the dark, while at the same time our dollars or funding is broken industries around the world. And this lack of transparency, we see it causing several significant problems, especially in the fashion industry, as it relates to social and environmental impact. And so we all want sustainable to actually mean something that’s more comprehensive, and that has a concern and focus for both people and planet. 

But we’ve seen the industry really move in a direction that is not nearly comprehensive enough. And so we recognize that without true transparency around social and environmental impact, the fashion industry can’t change. And this is because we know that without accountability, there’s no change. 

And we also know that without transparency, there’s no accountability and so all that to say without a  radical amount of unprecedented transparency fashion won’t be able to change. And this is why we realized we needed to make a label. 

When we think about the nutrition facts label, we knew that it’s had a tremendous impact on transparency in the food and beverage industry, the fashion industry has been nowhere near to bringing anything like this to the market, whereas that nutrition facts label has been around since the early 90s. 

And the attempts that have been launched kind of labels that have been launched frequently, quite frankly, the more that we saw, the more we saw that most were falling, short of ensuring the protection of people and the planet, a lot were only emphasizing one or two core areas of sustainability, where we feel there’s a much broader range that I’ll get into, that we feel needs to be addressed. 

And so all that to say, we believe it’s time that the transparency we get for the food we put in our bodies exist for the clothes that we put on our bodies. And that’s really what this is all about. You know, the point isn’t perfection, we believe it’s about progress over perfection. This is about being honest as well. And it’s about unprecedented transparency with all of our stakeholders. 

And so with that said, I want to just share what this is, you know, high level, high level, it’s a comprehensive product label that covers five categories across people, and then five categories across planet. And so for people, what the Sustainability Facts label is assessing, is wages and payment, health and safety, governance and workers’ rights, gender equality and empowerment, and health care and benefits. 

Those are kind of the five most important areas when we look at what the industry is evaluating when we see who’s being impacted within our own supply chain, as a kind of the five core areas that we feel are most important to be addressing. 

And then for the planet, this label is looking at a product’s carbon footprint. It’s looking at its raw material integrity and durability, processing and manufacturing, how is that product made, packaging and distribution, and then post-use product lifecycle. 

And so I think one of the biggest problems with the fashion industry today is that there’s so many different certifications and a lot of broad sweeping claims oftentimes leave the end consumer pretty confused. I think that brands are confused. Manufacturers as well have been confused. 

And one of the biggest things that’s been missing is just a simple place to look that comprehensively articulates these core social and environmental issues that need to be assessed from both people and planet perspective within supply chains. 

And so that was what we were really trying to get across with this label, you’ll be able to see on our website and our packaging as well. This label exists on all Nisolo made products. 

And so all of our product pages any footwear accessory item on the website that’s Nisolo branded has this in the lifestyle images. But you can also see it if you scroll down into the sustainability accordion as well. And you’ll see a great across all of those areas. 

And then what really makes this unique, it doesn’t just have that breadth of the 10 categories, the five and people in the five and planet. But if you click to see further, it actually also has 200 individual data points where you’ll be able to see what does this product actually meet? And what does it not meet when it comes from a people and planet perspective. 

There’s 92 data points in people and then 108 in planet. And so it’s one of the most transparent things that we’ve gotten to do. And we’re just trying to be really honest about, you know, what is this product doing? And what is it not doing? And we’re holding ourselves accountable in that to inviting our customers to keep us accountable to making improvements all the time.

ELIZABETH 

Wow, yeah the Sustainability Facts Label really has both depth and breadth. And I’m really looking forward to getting more into the methodology behind the labeling system.

But first, I just wanted to ask you a few clarifying questions about the label to make sure we’re all on the same page.

So the first one is: is the Sustainability Facts label a certification? Like if other brands were to use this methodology, would there be a Nisolo seal of approval or certification or anything like that?

MATT  

Yeah, great question. Quick answer is no, this is not — we don’t offer a seal of approval. This methodology is meant to empower consumers to make better choices, and to invite brands like us to strengthen our approaches to sustainability. 

And so the intention is that any brand could run with this format and run with this methodology and apply it to their products and product line, we’re by no means a third-party certifier. So no to that.

ELIZABETH

Okay, thank you for clarifying that. And then the second question that I had — and you did mention this in the description but just to emphasize — at what level is the Sustainability Facts label assessing? Is it for the brand? Is it for a collection? Or is it for an individual product? 

MATT

Yeah, totally. So the label is targeted towards individual products, while many certifications that assess a brand as a whole are important, like a B Corp, or Remake, and others that are in the industry, we felt it was really important to make this a product-specific label so that consumers can make those kinds of product based comparisons, as opposed to just brands as a whole.

ELIZABETH

Yeah and that is something very unique because I feel like we either have brand-level certifications, like B-Corp as you mentioned.

Or there’s a label or certification about the product, but it’s just like one attribute of the product. You know, maybe they use organic fabrics, or it’s produced in a fair trade facility, or it was tested against toxic chemicals. 

But there isn’t really anything to my knowledge that’s assessing a product with that depth and breadth that we see in the brand-level labels.

And I feel like I’m sort of answering the next question that I have for you here, but I would love to hear in your view, what makes the Sustainability Facts label different from what else is on the market today? Because as we know, there are a lot of labels, standards, certifications, etc. already in the fashion industry today.

MATT

Definitely. Yeah. And I want to start answering that question by just kind of first thing in many ways, we wish we didn’t need to create another label, because we recognize that the industry is so saturated with labels and standards and assessments. Currently, there’s dozens of them on the market, if not hundreds at this point. 

And so one of kind of the classic questions we’ve gotten throughout the process is even you know, why create another label to begin with? There’s really three reasons for that. 

We felt like a lot of the, you know, while extremely necessary, these kinds of in-depth certifications that look at things specifically at the product level, while they’re certainly necessary, we felt like a lot are not necessarily holistic or comprehensive enough. And so that was one reason why we put this out. 

Another major reason is that a lot of standards and certifications that are moving in the direction of more holistic reporting and labeling aren’t in front of consumers yet. We’ve always been passionate about giving consumers power in this space in supporting them in their journey towards just being more ethical and what they wear and what they consume as well. And so we wanted to get something that was consumer-facing. 

And then kind of the last, the last kind of major gap that we saw, as we looked at and research various labels and standards was that not it just simply aren’t that digestible? I think a lot of consumers tend to get lost, it’s hard to know what a certain badge means, or, you know, what a certain aspect of a certification means. And so, for us, what really different differentiates the label from others that are on the market right now are, the primary thing is really, to me, it’s digestibility. 

You know, a customer can look at this label and quickly understand, these are the 10 core things that I need to be considering when I purchase a, you know, a garment or a piece of apparel. And so it’s that matter of digestibility. 

And then the two other things, the next one being breadth, this looking at those 10 core issues, whereas a lot of other labels are only covering one or two. 

And then the next one being depth as well. We actually have a QR code on the back of every label on our physical products. And so a customer when they receive a pair of Nisolo’s can scan that QR code and then see exactly what that product qualifies for and doesn’t qualify for. 

So the score you see on the front or on the product page, it’s not just a randomized score, a customer can quickly scan that and see you know how we arrived at a 92% for example, for wages and payment.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, thank you for that in-depth explanation that’s really useful. And I’m excited to maybe get to test that out one day. 

So the Sustainability Facts label, in case anybody hasn’t seen it, follows the format of the Nutrition Facts label that we see on food products in the US. And yeah, I’m realizing people outside of the US might not see that, have seen that label, so I’ll put a picture in the show notes of like what a Nutrition Facts label looks like in the US and then what Nisolo’s Sustainability Facts label looks like. But the formats are very similar. 

So I would love to know what the parallels are with Nisolo’s Sustainability Facts label for the fashion industry, with the Nutrition Facts label for the food industry?

MATT

Yeah, great question. We really wanted a design that already made sense for the mainstream consumer. You know, there’s a reason we made it. 

So similar to the Nutrition Facts label, and we really did it because the major parallel and when you think about food is that Nutrition Facts label when you see it on, on food, it gives you the information, you need to make an educated decisions actually purchase that product, or to leave it where it is. 

And we felt like it’s been, and it’s been a really impactful tool. The nutrition label came out in the early 90s. And, you know, even though the food and beverage industry certainly still have their problems, I would make the argument that we’ve seen a lot more progress in that industry than we have in the fashion industry. 

We’re seeing, you know, just the exponential growth of regenerative organic food, small-scale farming, and just a lot of progress that I think has largely come from consumers being a little bit more aware of the impacts of what they’re putting into their bodies. 

And so we know that fashion has a huge impact. And we want to provide consumers with the information they need to make those kinds of educated decisions. And so we felt like the nutrition label was the most sensible kind of format and designed to go about that. 

And then the other reason as well is because it’s meant to be standardized and used across different brands. And so currently, we’re the only brand using it. I’ll get into a little bit later the interest that we’ve had from other brands, and some of our kind of medium and long-term intentions and next steps. 

But the hope is that other brands will adopt this, you know, that’s why we didn’t put our unique branding or fonts or colors to this label. It’s a simple black and white label, because our intention is for its broad adoption across the industry.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely, and that makes a lot of sense. 

So I think that when evaluating any label or certification, it’s really important to have an understanding of the methodology behind it. So can you tell us a bit about the body of research and the assessments and any other considerations that went into developing the scoring methodology for the Sustainability Facts Label?

MATT

Definitely. And I always love to geek out on methodology. We’ve been deep in the weeds on that stuff for several years now. 

So realizing how critical this kind of methodology was needed in the industry, and that it didn’t exist, when we really started to dig in, we knew that we had to help bring it to life. We knew we weren’t experts in everything sustainability, even though we’ve been in the fashion industry for 10 plus years now as a brand, and had a lot of experience across our team as well. 

And I think just with that humility of almost kind of coming from the outside being individuals that hadn’t created our own standard or certification, I think it actually set us up really well to do in-depth research of the assessments that were out there and really get a good sense of what is most important in creating a comprehensive assessment. 

And so we spent the last four years analyzing over 30 of the top assessments, certifications, and organizations and labels as well, to build our holistic methodology. And I want to share for the sustainability geeks out there, I’ll share a little bit of you know, the specific ones that went into each when it comes to people and planet. 

And so at the heart of our 92 people criteria, we assess our components from Sustainable Apparel Coalition’s Higg Index, Social Accountability International’s SA8000 Standard, we looked at the Fair Labor Association’s Workplace Code of Conduct, and compliance benchmarks. The Better Work Program as well, we looked at the ILO standards and International Finance Corporation. We looked at Fair Trade USA as well. We dug deep into B Lab’s B Impact Assessment. 

And then we also looked at living wage methodologies and standards from both the global living wage, the Global Living Wage Coalition, and then wage indicator and trading economics as well. And so that was on the people side, a lot of those similar names come up on the planet side as well. 

We also on planet, we also dug deep into textile exchanges, various standards, Cradle to Cradle product standards, Climate Neutral economies 2030 calculator, we looked at EON’s digital ID as well, Leather Working Group and other raw material standards also. And then Regenerative Organic standards, Bluesign, Oeko-Tex, REACH. A lot of these kinds of major standards and assessments that look at environmental impact. 

And so, as we started to research both in people and planet, what are all of these organizations looking at, we saw a ton of common threads, which we expected to see, as well. Everyone is looking at a core issue like child labor or working hours, or overtime hours, and things like that. 

And so we took those similarities and then built out a progressive methodology that goes from zero to 100, for product zero being a non-negotiable. A product, for example, would score a zero in governance and workers’ rights if there was child labor in that supply chain. But then it’s built up progressively in line with those standards and certifications so that something in the 90 to 100 range would indicate best practices that are really moving the industry forward. 

And so even though yes, we certainly did build our methodology, kind of placing those criteria where we felt most appropriate. All of those criteria are actually informed by industry experts and third-party certifications, and organizations that are really well versed in this stuff. 

None of it was just kind of blindly made up by Nisolo. And so that’s kind of we really felt like coming from the outside. Hopefully, we were able to attain the details and the rigor that come from these third-party organizations.

ELIZABETH

Yeah. And can you tell us how the Lowest Wage Challenge fits in with the Sustainability Facts label and maybe provide a little bit of background on what the Lowest Wage Challenge is for listeners that aren’t familiar with that?

MATT

Yeah, so the Lowest Wage Challenge was pre-pandemic. And it was something that we launched in 2019. Alongside ABLE, Nisolo is a brand based in Nashville, Tennessee, and ABLE is a friend and neighbor brand as well. 

Also, in Nashville, we launched the Lowest Wage Challenge as a means to inspire a living wage movement in fashion. We knew that less than 5% of factory workers were making a living wage, and we’d seen brand after brand make excuse after excuse for, you know why providing a living wage wasn’t possible.

And so we came together and thought about what would be a really engaging, provocative metric to publicly share to actually spark a living wage movement in the fashion industry. And there’s truly no wage, that’s more telling than, than the lowest wage really, for a lot of reasons. 

The lowest wage indicates what the person on the lowest hole on the ladder is making at a particular factory. And the reason why lowest wage is so important for us to be measuring is because if we can ensure that the lowest wage is a living wage, then we can be certain that everyone in that facility is receiving a wage that’s sufficient to meet their most basic needs. 

And so we partnered with ABLE and published our lowest wages very transparently, got a lot of positive feedback. Got a lot of criticism as well, you know, those hard questions of how can you be paying this in Peru or in Mexico? How is this a living wage?

And we had really rich conversation and dialogue with all of our stakeholders as to why this conversation was needed and how we were providing living wages for all of our factory workers. And we really believe in the importance of the transparency of that wage. 

And so in terms of how it fits into the Sustainability Facts Label, you’ll see and as one of the criteria under wages and payment in the People section on the label, if you go into it 200 data points that a product will receive a higher rating if the brand is being transparent about sharing the lowest wage, where that product is being manufactured. 

And so I think that also communicates just how broad this label is, you know, the lowest wage challenge and publishing our lowest wages was a major initiative and it’s really just, you know, one metric of 200 in this kind of greater label. So that’s how it fits in.

ELIZABETH

Okay, yeah, thank you for providing that context. I know it’s outside of the scope of this conversation because we only have so much time, but I’m very anxious to see the progress of the lowest wage challenge continue.

But back to the Sustainability Facts label, any rating certification or assessment is going to be inherently biased, because it is created by an organization of people with a certain background, and Nisolo addresses this on the methodology page on your website saying that, “in many ways, we wish we were not a brand behind this label, because of the biased perception of this tool when made by a brand.”

So my question here is, how did Nisolo try to balance out this bias when determining the methodology? And then how will you integrate feedback in the future for this label to make it as holistic as possible and considering as many perspectives as possible?

MATT

Yeah, it’s a great question. And honestly, it was front of mind the entire time that we were making the methodology. You know, how do we not get too close to this? How do we make sure that it is relevant for the entire industry, and actually, as unbiased as possible, as well. 

And so how like I responded in the previous in one of the previous questions, we tried to avoid a lot of bias by leaning as much as we could into third party assessments and standards that had already been built in factoring in the things that they do. And so it’s not just highlighting Nisolo specific activities. 

And I hope we also tried to communicate that well, as we rate ourselves in several areas across the board receiving a C minus, and a lot of our processing and manufacturing scores, recognizing that we have significant areas for improvement. And so, you know, we knew as we built this, it was going to be impossible for us to get 95s and A’s across the board, because we’re simply not there yet. 

We sort of built it out in a way that if there was a perfect product, what would I want 100% look like across the board? And then we’re able to kind of identify gaps between where we are now versus where we want to be. And we’re certainly proud of the progress and achievements we’ve made to date, but we know that we have a lot more work to do. And so that’s one of the ways we eliminated bias.

And then we also worked on it in collaboration. And so it wasn’t just a, I led a lot of the methodology building that was really beautiful about this project is that our CEO invested hundreds of his own hours and time, really getting a sense as well of what the different standards are, and how we’re performing across the board too. And so we had various team members jumping in and contributing feedback, and that created a lot of improvements. 

And now that it’s out there in the public, I’m really excited, because now I think is kind of the next chapter in season, where we get to make a lot of improvements, you know, now we get to pitch this and show this to legitimate industry experts, scientists and whatnot, and actually get their feedback on making improvements to this. And we have started to get that, that feedback, some good constructive criticism from others in the industry. 

And one of the kind of reasons that we built the methodology in the way that we did, where it’s kind of a, if you’ve looked through it, it kind of goes up by categories of 10. And so a product might fall into 50 to 60 or will fit into 60 to 70. We kind of built it in that progressive stage, instead of doing a specific algorithm that gives you a specific score in each because we knew that there would likely be some gaps as industry experts started to give feedback. 

And so, we are definitely in the process, you know, right now of implementing some of that feedback and making improvements to the existing label and structuring the method in that way, and it gave us the flexibility to get constructive criticism, and continue to build this out. 

Because ultimately, we want to see, a really, even though it’s thorough and is really broad and deep already, there’s always improvements you can make similar to how, if you look at different iterations of the nutrition facts label, it’s pretty amazing how far it’s come since 1992. So expect to see a lot of changes as well as this grows and becomes more of a transparent movement.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely. One parallel that comes to mind with the Nutrition Facts Label is that I hope to eventually be able to see on a garment or a piece of footwear, whatever it is, not just the fabric or material composition, but also the dyes used in any finishes. 

Because we know that a lot of the ones used in the industry are quite toxic. So that would be really interesting to see. 

MATT

Mhm.

ELIZABETH

And then a follow up question I had for you on this is, are you getting any feedback from like worker groups, activist organizations, or worker unions or anything like that, on the people side of things in the Sustainability Facts Label?

MATT

Yeah, that’s such a good question, as well. And in an area where we’re always seeking to get workers feedback. I’ve been in direct communication with the Garment Workers Center here in LA, and the company is based out of Nashville that I’m based out of Ventura. And so that’s an organization that I’ve started to ask them for feedback on. 

And then what’s really unique about Nisolo is that we are still vertically integrated. And so we do own and operate that factory still in Trujillo, Peru, that makes a significant share of our products. And so yeah, our I wouldn’t say our garment workers directly shared with us that these are the metrics that they want to share. 

But as we worked with them, as we’ve worked with them for more than a decade now, because of that direct experience with our factory workers, we’re able to get a stronger sense of what needs to be included on this label. And where can we be going above and beyond, especially in the scores of in categories of gender equality, and empowerment and health care and benefits as well. 

But it’s such a good suggestion. We’re in a really creative headspace now, where as we look at future iterations and improvements, that’s definitely a voice that we want to be central to informing any improvements that we make. 

We don’t want to just want to be in our own, you know, ethical fashion ivory tower. We’re very much engaged with factory workers on the ground and want them to be informing all of our practices and what we do.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely. 

So we started talking about the future of the Sustainability Facts Label and the progress. And so I’d love to hear from you, you know, what are the goals for the next few years? What do you see in this sort of mid-term future for the label?

MATT

I see it in sort of three phases. The first two phases would be more of the short and medium term. And then the third one being kind of longer. 

So phase one, which has been accomplished was really just getting creating this getting the methodology completed, rating our products that six took us several years, creating this, and getting it out into the world. 

And so now we’re very much in phase two, which is supporting brands with implementing it and making collective improvements to it as well. So we designed like I mentioned earlier, this label and methodology to be free of charge and simple to take and run with. It’s already receiving strong interest, the New York Times, Vogue, Forbes, and Entrepreneur have covered it. 

And we have had several brands that have been on calls with me that have been interested in implementing it using it to, you know, do one of two things. And oftentimes, both as we continue to grow to a lot are using it already to inform their sustainability vision and theirs, especially as they think about at the product level. And so they’re already using it internally to think through, how can we be performing better in, for example, the category of raw materials integrity, and durability. 

And then we do have a handful of brands also that are just wanting more support to get to a place where they can actually publish this label as well on their products. And so then more of a, it’s gotten, certainly gotten a lot more attention and similar to the Lowest Wage Challenge from your ethical fashion community and sustainable fashion community. 

I hope that as more and more brands start to publish this that customers will get more and more  acquainted with just expecting this level of transparency from brands. We hope that this is the floor for transparency for a future label for the industry. 

And so that kind of leads me to phase three, where eventually I would love to see and speaking for the company, Nisolo, would love to see an industry-wide adopted label that is regulated by an independent organization for actually scoring these products similar to how the Food and Drug Administration manages the nutrition facts label. We would love to see a day where this is standard practice. 

And it’s an interesting conversation to think about, you know, how can we ever get a really large, fast fashion brand to share in this level of detail what they’re doing, when it comes to people and the planet? 

We maybe they would do it if they had enough demand behind it from consumers. But another thing that I think is really starting to hit the industry is seeing the positive impact of legislation, as we look at SB62, in California, and as the New York Fashion Act is very much in progress. It’ll be interesting to see and maybe there’s a day where there’s legislation acquiring this kind of labeling. That would certainly be exciting.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, yeah for sure. That would be really exciting if we saw that level of transparency — and then also hopefully the accountability alongside it — across the entire fashion industry. That would really be incredible. 

As you mentioned, we are seeing some promising progress and so we can continue to advocate and accelerate that progress. And I really appreciate all of the work that Nisolo is doing in pushing the industry forward.

So, if listeners want to learn more about the Sustainability Facts label, where can they go?

MATT

Yeah, check it out on nisolo.com. If you go to the About drop down on our homepage, you’ll see a really big icon taking you to the Sustainability Facts Label landing page. That’s the best place that really explains the why and the what. 

And then on that same page, you’ll get a link, if you really want to geek out and read the 32-page methodology. You can go all the way through the ins and outs of how this was built and what informed it so I encourage you to check out both.

ELIZABETH

Perfect, yeah. And we will make sure those links are in the show notes for everyone to check out easily as well.

Matt, thank you so much for your time today and sharing all about Nisolo’s Sustainability Facts Label with us. It’s really exciting.

Before we end our conversation today, I do have one final question for you that I ask every guest that comes onto the podcast. And that is: what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

MATT

Yeah, well I have a really long answer, because I’ve given it a lot of thought over a long time. And it’s something that I’m just really passionate about. And so I’ve kind of broken it into five different parts. But I’ll start with people. 

My hope and dream is that all of the people behind the clothes we wear are cared for. I want to see them given what they need to thrive. I think to me that looks like workers are receiving a living wage, are working in a safe and healthy work environment where their rights are honored and elevated. And they’re also provided with health care and generous benefits that extend to their family members so that their whole family can thrive. 

Instead of holding young women and their dependents in poverty, I see our industry as a means of empowering women and helping them not only work in the fashion industry, but letting the fashion industry be a launching pad for them to work in careers that they are really aspiring to as well. 

On the planet side of things I see us and hope that we’ll be embracing a circular system where we only manufacture and make products within our planetary limits and what we can work with. Instead of extracting resources, I believe that fashion can be a means of regenerating the planet as well. And I think we’re already seeing that through really exciting and amazing regenerative practices.

For brands specifically, I hope that we take accountability for impacts and utilize our influence as a means to eradicate poverty and combat climate change. 

And I hope we inspire other industries to do the same as well. And fashion is a huge industry and it’s one of many large industries and I think that if we could do this right, if we could rewrite the system, maybe the oil industry and maybe other major offenders would take note as well and do the same. 

And then for consumers, I see us throwing out the term consumer, I see us operating as people. I see us really moving towards a place of where we’re looked at as, you know, citizens and activists driving change, not only people who are purchasing products. 

And so we’re really clear about this at Nisolo also about, we believe in buying less and buying better when we need to buy so I see us becoming more responsible as people who are purchasing products. And I also see us as through this label and through future labels as well being provided with information that we need in order to buy less and to buy better as well. 

And lastly, just speaking to the human family more generally, you know, all of us I believe that our flourishing is dependent on the well being of everybody in our natural environment as well. I see us all and hope for a day where we truly recognize our interdependence and use the time that we have to celebrate and uplift one another and the planet that we live in as well.

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for this episode with Matt of Nisolo. As mentioned, all of the relevant links and the full transcript are in the show notes on www.consciouslifeandstyle.com

And if you enjoy this episode, it would mean so much if you share it with a friend who might find it useful, you can either get the share link in your podcast app or just screenshot this episode and send it their way. 

Or you can share this episode on social media through something like Instagram stories. You can find me and the podcast @consciousstyle on Instagram and you can find Nisolo @nisoloshoes.

And if you are looking for even more sustainable fashion content, you can subscribe to my free newsletter The Conscious Edit. 

In this weekly newsletter, I share articles I’m reading, podcast I’m listening to, brands I’m browsing, campaigns I’m supporting, and more. And subscribers also will get access to a 10-page list of sustainable fashion resources, you can find all of that at www.consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit.

Alright, thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s show. I hope to see you for another episode of the Conscious Style Podcast next Tuesday.

About Matt

Matt’s passion for leveraging the fashion industry to eradicate poverty and combat climate change grew out of firsthand experiences working in garment factories across India through Santa Clara University’s Global Social Benefit Fellowship where he heard the stories of dozens of women who could not meet their families’ basic needs making clothes for major apparel brands.

Since joining the Nisolo team in 2015, Matt has worked on the ground in the factory they own and operate in Peru and alongside partner factories across the supply chain to ensure 100% living wages. He led the brand to B Corp Certification in 2017 and, more recently, Climate Neutral Certification in 2020.

Matt serves as a Remake Ambassador and member of Climate Neutral’s Brand Advisory Group with a strong conviction that collaboration is needed to shift the industry in a more sustainable direction.

Connect with Nisolo

Nisolo’s Website

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Sustainability Facts Label

The post Behind Nisolo’s Sustainability Facts Label with Matt Stockamp appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

In this interview, you’re going to hear Executive Director Ngozi Okaro talk about Custom Collaborative’s various programs, like their training institute, business incubator, cooperative development support work, and advocacy.

Mentioned Links:

• EP11: Fashion Activism: It’s Time for Brands to #PayUp with Ayesha Barenblat
• Fashion That Works Production
• Garment Worker Protection Act (SB 62)
• New York’s Fashion Sustainability and Accountability Act, (“The Fashion Act”)
• Garment Worker Center

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts

Or, read the transcript below.

Read the Transcript From This Interview:

NGOZI 

So I guess, by way of background started Custom Collaborative, because I was having clothes made by a woman who’s an immigrant from Guinea. And she would make me really great clothes. Sometimes I would try to make some small alterations myself. And I realized that I wasn’t doing a great job. 

There were some things that she could learn differently, but more important, there were so many potential clients for her. And for people like her who had skills that I really wanted to connect Mariama, my dressmaker, with people who could pay multiple times what I paid her for the clothes that she made. 

I am trained as a lawyer; I practiced law for a few years, and then moved to nonprofit management. So I started Custom Collaborative, our program started in 2016. 

And have been devoting myself basically full time from 2016 until now on this work. 

ELIZABETH

Yeah. And can you tell us about the various programs like the training institute and the business incubator that Custom Collaborative has today? 

NGOZI

Absolutely. The primary purpose of our work is to provide low and no-income and immigrant women with skills to have satisfying careers and businesses in the sustainable fashion industry. We go about our work three ways. 

We have a 15 week, 30-hour per week training institute, that in April 2022, will start for the first time since our last class graduated in June 2020. So I’m really excited about that. 

The second part of our work is a business incubator, where we support the women who have graduated from the training program, as well as other small and emerging businesses in the fashion industry. 

We help the women who graduated from the training program, make their dreams happen by continuing to support them on the business plan that they created in the training program. By placing them in jobs, which could be also of apprenticeships or internships, we’ve actually just gotten funding from Chanel as the lead stakeholder in an apprenticeship program.So we’re super excited about that. 

And then the third part of our work is worker cooperative development. So worker cooperative is like any other business, except for the people who work in the company, also own it and make all important decisions. We think that this is a really important way to not only provide people with ownership opportunities but to also spread values of democracy in collective work. 

The cooperative development program, Fashion That Works, in the summer of 2020 launched and is incubating a cooperative fashion that worked production. So those are our three main programs and we do some occasional consultancy on anti-racism for other businesses.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, you do so much at Custom Collaborative, and we’re gonna dive deeper into all those areas. But first, I wanted to explore with you why does Custom Collaborative focus on career development and business development within fashion given fashion’s sort of reputation for not always providing very positive employment opportunities? You know, why does Custom Collaborative focus on this industry?

NGOZI 

For me, it was the entryway that I saw, right? So like I had a particular problem, I am tall, it was better for me to have clothes made than to buy clothes off the rack and have been altered. And then I took some classes and did some research and realized that most women in America don’t fit clothes that are off the rack, right? 

The clothes off the rack are made for a particular fit model, depending on the company. And that doesn’t fit any of us. 

ELIZABETH 

Mm hmm.

NGOZI

So that was my entry point. I mean, yes, there are many industries that have poor practices but I believe that the poor practices were created by people and people can change them.

So I don’t think that fashion is irredeemable. I think that there’s the opportunity to do something within fashion. And I also in creating Custom Collaborative thought about the cultural context, which in within which many women exist. And so for many folks sewing in fashion, almost wherever they come from, is an acceptable occupation for women, and it’s something that people are comfortable with, and it’s something that everybody needs. And that brings many of us joy. So that’s really the why of fashion.

ELIZABETH

Mm hmm. Yeah, totally agree that the system is fixable if enough of us engage with it and push for that change. 

So at Custom Collaborative, you are creating a more positive future for fashion with your programs that you described to us. And we know that this space of fashion has so so so much greenwashing, especially as Big Fashion tries to co-opt sustainability. 

So can you tell us what sustainable fashion means to you, and to Custom Collaborative and what you think that Big Fashion is missing from this conversation?

NGOZI 

Sustainable fashion means that both the natural environment and people are prioritized in its creation. So sustainable fashion means environmentally friendly materials and processes that are put together by people who are paid living wages and work in decent conditions. 

For many years, sustainable fashion, had been talked about only in the context of the environmental impacts. But that really, to me makes no sense because if we’re not talking about the lives and the conditions of the people who make clothes, then you really have an unsustainable future and unsustainable fashion. 

Like, for me, if a garment whether it’s made of polyester, or linen, if the person who made it was not paid a decent wage, or if their labor was not willing, on their part, then I don’t want to be part of it. I don’t want it on my body.

ELIZABETH 

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely agreed. And something that I often say with that is, what type of world are we sustaining if exploitation and poor labor practices are still embedded in the systems? 

So I love that Custom Collaborative is taking that approach to sustainability. And beyond your programs, I know that you are also an advocate for legislation, like SB 62, known as the Garment Worker Protection Act in California, as well as consumer activist campaigns like PayUp which was led by Remake. 

And, by the way, for more context on the PayUp campaign, listeners can tune in to Episode 11 with Ayesha Barenblat of Remake.

But Ngozi, could you tell us more about your involvement with those campaigns?

NGOZI 

Sure. Custom Collaborative was a signatory to the PayUp campaign, we were part of the coalition, which was actually many of the same groups in support of the Garment Worker Protection Act, which was really led by the Garment Worker Center in California. 

We are part of a group that is pushing for amendments to the so-called Fashion Act that recently was introduced in New York. So we’re really part of a community of organizations that recognize that it is not just consumers, but also us as citizens who need to demand and push for protections for the planet and for people who clothe us.

ELIZABETH 

Absolutely. And could you tell us a little bit more about the Fashion Act and the amendments that Custom Collaborative is advocating for?

NGOZI 

Yes, so the Fashion Act is a different scope than the Garment Worker Protection Act. And what we’re looking for — the coalition of folks asking for amendments, we actually suggested some amendments — what we’re looking for is something more on the scope and scale of the Garment Worker Protection Act, or even legislation in some European countries. 

The Fashion Act, as I read and understand it, is more about tracking and voluntary registration and reporting, where we’re looking for something that has a bit more teeth, something that really holds manufacturers and retailers to account. 

So rather than just reporting on the supply chain, but doing a deeper dive, and when there’s recognition, when the government recognizes that companies have done something that’s illegal, or counter to the legislation, that the company will have to fix the harm where it occurred. 

So right now, as the Fashion Act is written, if there was a harm that a company did overseas, then that money would come into a pool in New York and go to New York organizations. Whereas we feel if there is harm done anywhere, the harm needs to be remediated where it happened.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that makes sense. So the Fashion Act is very close to home for you, as Custom Collaborative is based in New York. 

And Custom Collaborative really believes in local manufacturing. You focus your programs on New York. So can you speak to why local production is important to you and to Custom Collaborative?

NGOZI 

Yes and actually I want to expand it. I think that local production is important to all of us especially after we have gone through the pandemic, which there continued to be supply chain issues. But in the earlier days of the pandemic, there was a big issue because people couldn’t get enough protective equipment. 

So that means hospital gowns and masks, all these things were sewn overseas, and not made and sold in the US. So one of the things that Custom Collaborative did was start making masks, primarily so the women in our programs could earn income, but also to serve a community need. So we donated thousands of masks and sold masks.

So it’s really important that in the case of a national emergency — which is what the pandemic was — that communities can support themselves and have access to the life-saving things that they need.

For Custom Collaborative, and I think, again, for the industry, it’s very important to have local production because that way you can actually see what’s going on. 

So we know that in China that the Uighur people are being forced into labor. What is harder to know is what companies are benefiting from that forced labor, because it’s so far around the world and they’re so different countries have such different standards on labor and human rights. 

So if production were more localized, we would be able to have answers to some of these questions and also have items in our supply chain that align with our values.

Then also, for Custom Collaborative, just to go more granular, it’s very important that we produce locally, because there are people in our communities who want to do this work, want to have good-paying jobs, and can have that. So if we can do it right here, to me, that seems like the best and most important thing to do is to support our own local communities.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, and localizing production is definitely a way to make supply chains more transparent, as you touched on, as well as more responsible with the added transparency and accountability. Though, unfortunately, these things are not always the case as the campaign for the Garment Worker Protection Act really brought to light some of the sweatshop-like conditions that were happening in Los Angeles. 

So could you speak to why domestic manufacturing or made in the US doesn’t always equal ethical and then maybe how we can close that gap?

NGOZI 

Sure. I mean, there’s no always, right? I think that there are situations where we can increase the probability of the outcomes that we want. 

So just thinking about the Garment Workers Protection Act, before the Garment Workers Protection Act, companies would subcontract their work to factories who might then subcontract it to another factory. 

And so the label might say, company XYZ, but it was put together by company A and B, and C. And it’s possible that none of those companies were paying a minimum wage, but company XYZ was really able to wash their hands of it because they had subcontracted. Now with the Garment Worker Protection law in California, SB 62, Company X, Y, Z can no longer absolve themselves of responsibility just because they subcontracted to A, B, and C. 

So the closer we get to the people who are benefiting, being responsible, the better workers are and the better off consumers are, because they can walk around with clothing on that they understand, to be free of unjust labor practices. Right? 

So again, there’s no guarantee but the closer we put the parties together and the more actual regulation that we have. In this instance, the better off it is for workers and for consumers.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm, right. Yeah, subcontracting is such a huge, huge issue and it happens in local supply chains just as it happens with supply chains overseas. And fashion brands no matter where their supply chain is will take significant efforts to separate themselves from the actual production of their clothes to try to reduce their responsibility for what is happening. 

And then they’ll push the prices down with factories and factories often have no choice but to pay less or require their workers to work more and then yet the brands profiting off of this entire system are not being held accountable for what is going on.

But legislation, like the Garment Worker Protection Act, can be used to help close that responsibility gap and ensure that brands are held to account for what is happening in their supply chains. 

So, do you see the same issues of subcontracting, underpaid labor, and exploitative working conditions in New York’s Garment District that have been documented in Los Angeles?

NGOZI

Yes, I think that it happens, not just in the New York Garment District, but wherever there is the potential for exploiting people. I was on a panel recently with a woman who was sharing the experiences of people who were seamstresses in Queens, who suffered exploitation and were not paid minimum wage. 

I think that is… it’s relatively widespread, obviously, not in the same way that it was decades ago, or that it is in some other countries today. But I think that when there’s opportunity for exploitation, especially if that exploitation leads to profit for a few people, then yes, it can happen. That said, I have not been in a factory in the garment district for the past two years. But I have seen it in prior years.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. And when we think about systems-level changes for shifting the power dynamics to try to address these issues, one possible business alternative business model is cooperatives. And as you mentioned in the beginning, something that Custom Collaborative is involved with is supporting the development of co-ops. 

So can you explain to us the basics of what a fashion manufacturing co-op is, and how it might be an approach to a more equitable fashion ecosystem?

NGOZI 

Absolutely. A cooperative is just like any other business as I talked about, except that it is owned by the workers. So the cooperative fashion that works production, which is owned by four Custom Collaborative participants, is incorporated as a private business. 

And the four women decide what types of projects they’re going to take on, what they’re going to charge, how much of what they charge goes back into the business, if they’re going to hire other people, if they’re going to vote in other people, as member-owners. 

One of the reasons that that is so important is because it gives people agency. They know that if they’re underpaying themselves, that’s their fault and it’s their responsibility to do something about it. They are also the experts at what they’re doing. 

Whereas in a situation where it’s more hierarchical, and there’s one or two people making the decisions for a business that involves hundreds of people, though that type of business might not have the right information might not have the best inputs, because it’s not a cross-section of the people who are actually doing the work, who sometimes have greater and different insights. 

Another reason that cooperative ownership is important is because it allows people who don’t have work authorization to legally work as long as they’re owners of the cooperative. 

And I just see it as for one thing, something that is growing in New York, New York City has had a owner to owner program going that helps owners of existing businesses transfer the ownership to workers. And that’s like a great way to keep small businesses in New York if the owners are like, aging out, or they want to sell their business and they can’t find buyers, this way, they can have people buy the business who also know the business, and then people get to keep their jobs. 

Another impact of workers actually owning the business is that they can make decisions that are less wasteful, and more in line with a planet that can continue to support human and diverse plant and animal life. 

I believe that part of the problem with the fashion industry now is that there is overproduction and with exploited labor, or unsustainably low priced labor, there’s a greater incentive to produce. And so then it’s that much easier to have like overproduction of clothing, just like, you know, clothes in boxes and bins that get thrown away or burnt. 

But part of the problem is, there was not a high enough cost for the manufacturer or the owner of the business, not to make the clothes. So they can just make a lot of things and say like, oh, somebody buys it, they buy it, and if not, we’ll just get rid of it, because it costs us hardly anything to make. 

So when the people who are making those decisions are the owners, are the workers, there’s more at stake — they’re not going to just waste their labor. 

So I think that the more again, we connect the people who are making decisions with the people who are living in communities with high rates of pollution, make the decision-makers also a larger community of owners, I believe that gets us to a place where we’re entering a more sustainable fashion industry.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely, there are so many areas where ethical and sustainable and slow fashion intersect and there is always a strong case to be made for when the fashion production is done more ethically and fairly, it also leads to more sustainable fashion. 

Because, yeah, the low wages and lack of investment in manufacturing facilities, that is how we get such cheap fashion, which leads to such overproduction and overconsumption with little recourse because financially it was so cheap to make in the first place. 

NGOZI

Right, right. 

ELIZABETH 

So in terms of talking about sustainable and ethical fashion, having these connections, how do you implement that in your training institute and business incubator? What sorts of sustainability initiatives do you have with those programs?

NGOZI 

Sure. With our training institute, all of the materials that our participants learn on are repurposed, donated, upcycled. So, many fashion companies and some individuals will give us fabric and zippers and everything else that people need to learn to sew. 

So from right there, we’re really diverting textiles from the waste stream. So our participants can learn and develop skills. 

We also, in our programs, teach sustainability. It’s really important for us that the women who were training to go into industry, understand what’s going on in industry, and understand their place in it and how they can be more sustainable. 

So as we look at it, we’re training the future fashion leaders and we want to make sure that they have the education about sustainability that they need so they can make good decisions when designing and producing their own collections.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s amazing. So how can we all support Custom Collaborative’s work? And where can we find Custom Collaborative online?

NGOZI

Yes. So online, we are at CustomCollaborative.org. On Instagram, which is where we have a lot of our interaction we’re @customcolab — C O L, A, B, one L. And we’re on LinkedIn, Custom Collaborative, Facebook as well and Twitter @customcolab.

This is March Women’s History Month so we have a campaign to fund our programs. 

We’re a nonprofit, and so we get our funding from people in corporations and foundations. And it’s because of this funding that we’re able to train women into living wage jobs. We’re able to provide mentorship and materials for women and even hold holiday marketplaces so they can sell their goods.

So I would be overjoyed if listeners would go to CustomCollaborative.org or even to our Instagram or Facebook page and made a donation or told other people about Custom Collaborative. So that’s something that’s really important. 

And then if there are people who have specialized fashion industry skills, if they would like to volunteer with us, we have a volunteer application, they can email info@customercollaborative.org. There may also be a place on our website, I just don’t remember right now, but we are always eager to have people come in and teach and share their knowledge. 

We’ve had folks come in and teach a course on social media marketing, pants alteration, color theory. So any of these things would be great if they’re industry experts who want to support us.

ELIZABETH

Great. And we’ll make sure all of those links are in the show notes on consciouslifeandstyle.com for listeners to reference later. 

I have one final question for you before we end this conversation that I ask all guests that come on to the podcast. And that is: what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

NGOZI

A better future for fashion. That’s a really good question. So I actually have two answers. 

A better future for fashion would look like all people having access to sustainably sourced clothing that fits and affirms their bodies. 

Right now, so many clothes are gendered or in a specific set of sizes that many people feel left out of wearing and owning clothes that make them happy. 

The other thing is that I am looking toward the day where the people who produce fashion are treated as the important pieces of the fashion industry that they are. People many times overlook the seamstresses and the leather workers but really those are the folks who actually put the designers’ dreams out into the world. And so I look forward to a future where those people receive the recognition and the pay and working conditions that they deserve.

And that’s a wrap for this episode with Ngozi. I definitely recommend checking out and following Custom Collaborative’s work, as they are truly driving change in the fashion industry.

For future conversations about sustainable & ethical fashion like this one, make sure you are subscribed to the Conscious Style Podcast on your favorite podcast listening app. 

You can also sign up to my weekly newsletter, the Conscious Edit, for podcast updates and much, much more. Each week, I share what I’m reading, listening to, watching, supporting, or browsing in the world of conscious fashion. You can sign up for that newsletter at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. 

Subscribers will also receive access to a 10-page ever-growing list of sustainable fashion resources to support you on your journey. Links for the sign-up will be in the episode description and it is a totally free newsletter.

Thank you for tuning into this podcast episode today. I will catch you again next Tuesday for another episode of the Conscious Style Podcast.

About Ngozi Okaro 

Ngozi Okaro advocates for a fashion industry that honors planet and people. Ngozi founded Custom Collaborative, to support immigrant & no/low-income women launching sustainable fashion businesses and careers. Custom Collaborative serves US designers who want to design and produce locally, fashion-industry workers, and consumers who want ethical fashion. 

Among other distinctions, Ngozi is a 2021 AARP Purpose Prize Fellow, 2021 Crain’s Notable Woman in Business, 2020 “World-Changing Women in Conscious Business” winner, from Conscious Company Media and Kate Spade, 2019 NYC Fair Trade Coalition “Changemaker of the Year”, and 2019 New York Women’s Foundation “Spirit of Entrepreneurship” awardee. 

Connect with Custom Collaborative

Custom Collaborative Website

Instagram – @customcolab

Facebook – @customcollaborative

Twitter – @customcolab

LinkedIn

Youtube

Interested in volunteering with Custom Collaborative? Send an email to: info@customercollaborative.org 

The post How Custom Collaborative is Paving the Way for a Better Fashion Future appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Cynthia Dam, the content creator behind Inspiroue, is talking about ways to get started with a more conscious approach to fashion, how to curate a sustainable wardrobe affordably, how to spot greenwashing brands, what to look for from a truly sustainable fashion brand, tips for smart thrifting, and more!

CONNECT WITH CYNTHIA:

• Website
• Instagram
• YouTube

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app.

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts.

The transcript of this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast is below.

ELIZABETH JOY: Hey there, and welcome or welcome back to the show. Today’s episode is going back to the basics a bit and exploring some of the most commonly asked questions in sustainable fashion.

I will be in conversation with Cynthia of the YouTube channel and associated Instagram account inspiroue.

Cynthia is a sustainable fashion advocate and educator who breaks down many complex topics on her channel in a very digestible way. She is definitely one of my favorite YouTubers, so I’m really excited to have her on the podcast today.

And in this interview, Cynthia is going to share what tips she has for those just getting started on their conscious fashion journey — which I think is also helpful in terms of how we can communicate to others who may be our conscious fashion beginners as well.

She’ll also be talking about:

• What her approach is to curating a sustainable wardrobe;
• Some ways that we can be ethical and sustainable fashion activists;
• How we can identify greenwashing and call in brands to actually do the work to be more sustainable;
• What elements Cynthia looks for to tell when a brand is actually conscious or sustainable;
• and her tips for thrifting like a pro.
• Plus, there will be much more along the way!

If you would like to read along or read this interview instead, the full transcript to this episode is in the show notes, which you can find on consciouslifeandstyle.com.

The link is also in the episode description. And if you like this interview, be sure to follow or subscribe to this podcast so that you do not miss any future chats like this one. And finally, if you’re a fan of the podcast so far, giving a rating and a review of Conscious Style Podcast is something that can really help this content reach new audiences. Thank you so much in advance for your support!

Okay, now on to the show. Cynthia is going to get us started here with some background on what led to her interest in sustainable fashion and starting her platform, inspiroue.

CYNTHIA DAM: In terms of background, I actually started on YouTube, just for fun. I needed a creative outlet when I was just a baby entering high school. And then along the way, I think my journey with fast fashion is really similar to others.

You know, at that age, we’re shopping H&M, and we’re in that really fast buying mindset; over-consuming, always wanting something new and emotionally shopping.

And I always found myself just staring at my closet and wondering, why don’t I like any of my clothes when I have so many of them?

So when I started to Google about fast fashion, about H&M, and why I felt that way, I actually did an essay on this in high school, so that was almost the pivotal point.

We had to research a business and talk about their business model. So I chose Zara because I loved Zara at the time. And then from there, I realized, okay, they created this fast fashion business model.

Why is that? What is the impact and the effect of making fashion into such as short turnaround time?

Because they are the ones that basically invented like from design to in-store. They would operate with a 10-day turnaround and that really changed the entire way the fashion system worked.

Then from there, it just slowly snowballed into the platform that it is today. Because it’s so important for us to realize, I think the extent of how fashion impacts people. And that’s why I started the content that I’m doing now is to really improve sustainability literacy.

And to talk about these things that I think should be talked about at a younger age, versus us just researching and learning more about it because we’re passionate about fashion.

So it really turned from that first essay in high school to learning about the fast fashion industry, and then the Rana Plaza incident happened around the same time. Then I started learning about the ethics and unethical labor, the forced labor that happens.

Then, slowly getting more into thrifting, capsule wardrobes, trying to figure out how I as an individual consumer, could make an impact. Because I was like, why is this a thing, you know? Like how do we start to shift this?

And as I was talking to people around me, no one really seemed to care either. So it was really interesting to grow up trying to navigate that space and see now looking back how much the revolution has grown and how much more people know about this and care about this.

Yeah, that’s kind of a bit of a background.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, that’s super interesting about Zara. Because I had a similar experience. I studied international business at my university and I had an international supply chain management class.

And we literally studied Zara’s model. And they were promoting it as like this super innovative, amazing thing that we should learn from.

Now looking back at that, I realized how harmful that was that that was literally teaching all of these people, all these students that this was like the model to work towards…

CYNTHIA: Right?

And it’s all based on not just capitalism, but colonialism, right? Trying to get the most money out of the most efficient processes possible around the world, going to where the labor is the cheapest, where the policies for labor are the most loosely held.

But how that’s really baked into our mindsets, right?

As we go into university, I think a lot of people are talking now about how everything’s so interconnected, and how the systems that we live in are built to be oppressive.

I think that it’s not just in fashion, but as you start to see it, it’s literally in every single thing in our world.

Which I know is a little bit sad to say but also, I think that it is such a cool opportunity for us.

Because what we learn in one industry, so what I learned in fashion, can be applied to everything else.

Not just with rights, not just with ethics, but represents something that all of us can understand no matter what we care about and no matter what we’re passionate about.

I think wanting to change one part of this global system, such as fashion, also means that we have to change how we see everything else and how everything else works.

So the more that I’m thinking about it that way, the more I’m seeing everything as this one interconnected thing, the more I see it as an opportunity versus this overwhelming, huge problem — this like mess.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, yeah, I totally am with you.

It feels like if you look at all of it as individual issues, it’s so overwhelming.

But if we see those deeper root causes, those connections, then we’re like okay, if we address it at this root cause, then we can start to really address all of these things that I once thought were all just separate problems.

So yeah, definitely education is key on that. And that’s why I love your series on your YouTube channel called sustainability literacy.

You break down things like definitions, concepts, things to watch out for in sustainable fashion, and talking about the problems in fast fashion or big fashion.

And there are, of course, a lot of things wrong with fast fashion. But what do you think are some of the worst impacts of the fashion industry today?

CYNTHIA: Of course. I think first is the people. Like, I don’t understand how it’s been eight years since the Rana Plaza collapse in Bangladesh….

And we’re still trying to convince or pressure brands into paying living wages, into giving their workers rights. Like with the pandemic, how so many brands just refused to pay and left garment workers in the dust canceling orders.

So I think first it is just the people who make our clothes.

From the garment workers to the farmers at the beginning of that production process, the second, third-tier suppliers, the ones that a lot of consumers don’t think about.

Yeah so I think first is the people that directly make the clothes, that harvest the materials that go into making the clothes, that dye the clothes.

And then second is the people that bear the burden of the environmental impact of the production of mass fashion.

So not just the textile waste, which I have a whole video on in that playlist so check that out, it is jam-packed with stats — but the amount of textile waste that comes out of the way that we currently consume and produce. It affects people across the world and the Global South.

It’s mostly the Global South that is negatively impacted. And it’s almost as out of sight out of mind. So we need to care about them as well.

Then not just that, but where we produce the fashion, all of the chemical dyes, the toxic water waste, all that pollution is also negatively impacting the people in the Global South the most as well.

So thinking about not just the people who directly make our clothes being treated fairly, being given living wages, and actually having access to clean water and food.

Not allowing it almost our greed and the way that we consume to impact these people, because I think we operate under this out of sight out of mind.

I think we’re really privileged here in the Global North. So all of that really ties together, I think, to fast fashion.

Then I think it really just starts with the people, and then, of course, the planet, right? It’s all interconnected.

So I mentioned, the pollution, the water waste, all of that, but then also the amount of resources that it takes, the amount of fossil fuels, the carbon emissions that come from the way that we produce. I have a video on that as well, so it’s a great place to check out.

But the amount of oil that we use for synthetic fibers, the amount of trees that we cut down to produce materials, like things made out of wood pulp.

There’s just so much there. So I would say people and the planet. I know that’s such a vague answer.

But it honestly is what continues to be impacted the worst — from the way that fast fashion is made from the way that mass-market fashion continues to be produced.

ELIZABETH: Mhm yeah.

I mean it really does have like every impact you could imagine on people and every impact you could imagine on the planet. So it’s a good way to sum it up.

So for those who have learned about the harms of fashion, and they want to kind of dip their toes into maybe shopping a little bit more consciously, or more broadly, participating in fashion more consciously.

What tips do you have for people just starting out in their journey? Or what tips would you suggest people give to others starting out on their journey?

CYNTHIA: Of course.

I think we first need to acknowledge that there’s no perfect activists. There’s no perfect individuals.

So not judging people for where they shop, or how they contribute and how they make their impact, I think is really important.

It’s not so much focused on where you buy from or how you buy, but being a sustainable consumer means not consuming as much.

So I think that is one of the first things to relearn is, in order to be more sustainable, we actually need to cut consumption, no matter where we shop from.

The other thing is, I don’t know what resources or what privileges or what money people have access to. I think there’s a lot of privilege, even in the sustainable fashion space, and a lack of inclusivity from sizing to price range.

But in that regard, not using that as an excuse, because it doesn’t just stop at how you consume or what brands you support. I think a lot of the activism goes beyond the consumer.

So there’s a lot of talk right now about being just a citizen or being a consumer activist; not just being a conscious consumer.

So voting, doing things that help your community directly where you live to be more sustainable. Being more involved in the grassroot organizations.

It’s also not just doing the online work, but also doing the offline work.

I know that it was kind of like a lot of random things together.

But to summarize, I think one is not thinking that you need to buy from sustainable brands to be sustainable. it really is more about slowing down your consumption, and being more mindful of your consumption, making the most out of what you have trying to buy secondhand first.

There are so many clothes already on the planet, why do we need to continue to create more?

Second one is to hold brands accountable, whether they’re brands that you continue to buy from, whether their brands you want to buy in the future, or brands that you bought from in the past.

No matter where you are in your individual journey, you can still use your voice for any brand that exists out there to hold them accountable and to demand change.

Because the more that we can kind of pressure them to do that as a collective of consumers, the more pressure they’ll feel.

But on the flip side of that, we also need to demand better regulation from government.

So that’s why voting and being in tune with your local government and what they’re doing plays a role because it’s almost a ripple effect.

Really just I think caring at the end of the day, but also not feeling bad when you do something that you don’t think is sustainable, either.

I think when I first started this journey too, you can feel really overwhelmed, right? Like there’s so many places to start, or so many people saying you need to do this and this.

I think it’s just knowing that every single thing that you can do matters and that there is no perfect sustainable consumer. There’s no perfect sustainability activist, but the more that we can all do together, the better.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, totally.

And all of these things are so interconnected. Just as you were saying all the issues in fashion are interconnected, kind of all the solutions are interconnected.

So yeah, getting involved in whatever way a person can. I love that. And I love that you made that really accessible because it can be very intimidating. I think the word activism is a little scary sometimes.

CYNTHIA: Right?

Even in the beginning, I was worried to say that I am an activist, or I want to be a change maker.

Because once you say that, I think you would invite in a lot of judgment from others, where it’s like, okay, now everybody’s watching you like a hawk. [Saying] like, ‘oh, you bought like a cup of coffee. So why are you claiming that you are sustainable or that you’re an activist?’

And I think that’s why it’s so important to not hold that judgment and not hold everybody to this idea of a perfect sustainable person, because it doesn’t exist.

I think the other thing I want to mention here is, a lot of people will say, ‘oh, but there is no ethical or sustainable consumption under capitalism.’

Like, yeah, but how are we going to change the system?

That’s not an excuse to continue shopping at Zara or H&M or buying new clothes every season! So I think that there is a lot of judgment and a lot of that type of perception that we need to change.

And I think it’s all just supporting each other in this journey so that we’re not making it hard for people to want to start this journey. It’s already overwhelming as it is facing off these big brands and the system that we live in.

ELIZABETH: Yeah.

And when we make it about being perfect, then people are going to think it’s all or nothing — and well I can’t be perfect, so why should I try?

So that’s something I really love about your videos is that you do make it so accessible, and so approachable.

And one of my favorite videos of yours is how to sustainably build your wardrobe. And you just have SO much good advice in there. So I will link that video in the show notes — I definitely recommend people check out the full thing.

But could you briefly tell us about your approach to curating or building a wardrobe in a sustainable and accessible way?

CYNTHIA: Of course.

Yeah, definitely check that video out because it goes into everything.

First, it starts with just slowing down and being mindful of what you already have.

Because if you’re going to go out and buy things sustainably without knowing what you have, and what will actually add value to your wardrobe first, then how do you know that the piece that you’re going to add next is actually going to be something that you love and cherish or you’re going to wear for a long time? So I would start there.

The second thing is making the most of what you already have. Those are pretty connected.

But again, as I mentioned earlier, it’s not sustainable to constantly buy. Like the most sustainable thing, you can do is not buy. So really remembering that when you’re trying to build out your wardrobe.

The third step is kind of related to if you do want to buy, try to buy secondhand first, try to swap with friends, try to mend clothing.

Then if you can, start to do your research, and invest in good pieces.

Spend that money to support brands that pay living wages, and that use sustainable materials and fibers, because those are the pieces that will also last a really long time.

But I’m also not just saying that only pieces from sustainable brands last a long time.

You can also take care of your pieces from fast fashion brands and make them last a decade.

So just taking care of your clothes, washing them less — I think we wash your clothes way too often.

There are just really simple things that you can do to make sure your pieces last!

Then I think from there, it’s just being really mindful when you do buy stuff.

I think anytime I see a video on YouTube about how to build your wardrobe, they recommend the same pieces over and over.

And it’s like, ‘no, a white t-shirt is not a staple for me because I do not like how it looks on me.’

So it is really just about tuning into what you feel good in what you love to wear. The colors that you love and defining style as YOUR style.

I know that’s tough, but I think really spending a bit more time tuning into yourself and also knowing it’s okay if that changes over time….

But trying to be as mindful and intentional as possible, so that you’re not just throwing out everything in your wardrobe every season because your styles changing that much.

I don’t think that’s actually a thing if you start to be mindful in the beginning.

That’s kind of the gist of how to sustainably build your wardrobe.

It really just starts first with knowing what you have and then from there, exploring styles and pieces that are good investments that will add value and spending time really learning what you love and what your style is.

ELIZABETH: For sure.

Yeah and I think that your video does a really good job at that assessment piece, like really assessing your style.

Figuring out what do you actually wear? What do you actually like?

Because as you were saying, some of these YouTube videos or other resources will have these must-haves or these essentials.

They kind of have this one-size-fits-all solution that doesn’t really work for everybody.

They’ll say wear a white button-down blouse and get a good pair of dark jeans. And I bought some of those things to later realize that I don’t really wear those things.

Like I hate wearing jeans!

So it’s not really a sustainable approach. Even if it’s a capsule minimalist wardrobe, if it’s full of things that you don’t wear, it kind of ruins the point.

But anyway, kind of shifting back to some of these bigger issues that we were talking about before, it can feel really overwhelming, and like it’s impossible to make a difference.

And we touched on ways that we can make a difference with our closets and then we also talked about fashion activism earlier.

So I was wondering if you had some tips for that second piece, that fashion activism piece? How can somebody get involved? What are some tangible ways that people can get started with that?

CYNTHIA: Yeah, of course.

I think in the beginning, one of the easiest things is to diversify your [social media] feed. I think it feels is the most overwhelming when you care, but then you don’t know where to start.

There’s so many resources on Google, you don’t know what to trust and everything’s always changing. So there are amazing activists and voices and creators on Instagram.

So by just following them, you’re slowly are exposed to the conversations that they want you to have and the things that they want you to start thinking about.

I think that’s one of the easiest ways to start learning how to also push for change yourself.

Then I think having those conversations, having an open mind with people in your circle too. That’s how we continue to push for change, is at your level of influence.

Sometimes we think, okay, in order to make a difference, I need to change the world.

But how do we actually do that in a sustainable way, based on us still having to live our lives as well?

How can we inspire those around us to also care about this?

What can we do at our level of influence?

Is it talking to the local government? Talking to, for us, it’s like the municipality and where we are in the city, thinking about what we do in terms of our recycling? Do we have textile manufacturers? Kind of things that are directly around you.

Or for me, for example, I really love educating and reaching people online; I already kind of have this platform.

So how can I leverage that, and reach these people and inspire these people?

So I think it really is just about always being open to learning.

And always being open to changing your mind after seeing a new piece of information, because everything constantly changes, too, right?

So not feeling like you need to defend yourself if you were wrong about something after learning about something else I think it’s also really important.

And it’s not just about fashion. If you care about ethical fashion or sustainable fashion, you also care about women’s rights; you care about racial justice; if you care about environmental justice, you should also care about women’s rights.

Again, like we mentioned, all these things are interconnected.

I think it really starts with wanting to understand all the moving parts.

So that’s why I stressed the importance of education around sustainability — sustainability literacy.

Even as consumers who want to start caring about this, brands have gotten so good at greenwashing, that you don’t even know when they claim something, if it’s true or not.

So how do we make a difference?

It’s by really understanding so that we can confidently push back when we see that. So there are so many different things to do.

But I think at the baseline, it is increasing our understanding of this stuff and our awareness and then continuing to have those conversations, continuing to push that — whether it’s through our friend groups, through family, through local government, and seeing what they do.

And especially if there are teachers watching this, I really do think we need to start teaching this in school as well. I’ve had really interesting conversations about this too.

But why aren’t we educating people about this from a young age? Like why aren’t we taught this?

ELIZABETH: Yeah. I mean, as we were talking about before, sometimes we’re even taught the opposite!

We’re taught that these models of super efficiency and outsourcing to countries and having no traceability of anything and producing as fast as possible. We’re taught that that’s like a good thing.

So yeah, education is very key.

But something you touched on was greenwashing, and I would love to explore that more.

So for anyone unfamiliar, greenwashing is essentially when brands exaggerate or mislead or just flat out lie about their sustainability claims.

So Cynthia, how can we spot this? And how can we maybe call in brands and push them to stop greenwashing and actually do the work to become more sustainable?

CYNTHIA: Of course, yeah!

I also have a video on greenwashing, and what brands continue to do and all of the buzzwords, so those are great videos to watch as well.

But in terms of greenwashing, I think if you ask a more specific question, when a brand claims something.

Let’s say, H&M says, ‘we are more sustainable, because we make our conscious line out of 50% recycled cotton.’

Then you can ask, okay, but how much regular cotton do you use for your entire supply chain?

Just asking one level deeper about what they’re talking about usually uncovers a really vague message from them, or they try to skirt around it.

So asking for really specific answers when brands claim things will really help show whether they are greenwashing or if they have facts to back whatever up.

I think with greenwashing, brands have gotten really smart about this.

So they will do something to distract you or they will hide it with a lot of long resources. Like in their impact report, they will refer you to different exhibits and different pages, and then it literally just doesn’t mean anything, either.

And the language that brands use, especially if they use kind of vague terminology, like more sustainable or more eco friendly, I think digging into that and seeing what does that actually mean? Like how is it actually more sustainable will help you pinpoint it and see what their answers are there.

I think in the industry, a lot of the greenwashers are larger brands too. So they want to make money from people who care about sustainability.

So I think the one easiest way to spot greenwashing is, if they still continue to produce at a large scale, if they continue to constantly release new collections, they’re definitely not sustainable.

Then also, at the end of the fashion cycle, do they do anything to help recycle their textiles?

So a lot of these brands, for example, H&M has a take-back program where they claim that they’ll take back your clothes, and recycle them.

But learning the definition of true recycling versus down-cycling. A lot of the times these brands are just taking these and shredding them down into fibers or into washcloths or insulation, so it doesn’t hold the same value and eventually still ends up in landfills.

That is another example of greenwashing.

But it’s a bit harder to realize if you’re just looking at oh, yeah, like they take back our clothes, they are helping close the loop on fashion! But no, it’s still going to the waste.

So again, just asking, where do these clothes go? Can you make them into new clothes? Ask them those deeper questions.

And then in terms of calling in brands, on social media especially, we’ve definitely been able to cause a ruckus maybe because we’re also in lockdown. So it’s not like we can go out and safely protest in front of the stores and stuff.

So when [brands] post about sustainability, you can already see in the comments, people starting to ask these more direct questions to also bring up okay yeah, sure, you decreased your carbon emissions by this much… but are you paying your garment workers?

Sustainability doesn’t really have a true definition, so they use it in these small parts of their entire supply chain.

But true sustainability is across the entire like business model.

So if they say, oh, look at this, we use more sustainable materials or a more sustainable production process.

If they don’t reflect sustainability across their entire business, whether it’s from paying workers sustainable wages, or the materials that they source, they don’t even know where they come from. I think those are really easy ways to tell that brand doesn’t care about sustainability.

Or you can also ask — I don’t really like the idea of canceling a brand, especially if they’re a smaller brand just starting out — but asking for numbers and for concrete commitments, so that we can hold them accountable to timelines is really important.

Because a brand will say we aim by 2030 to pay all of our garment workers living wages, but then how do they prove that they are doing that?

So constantly asking, okay, you said this, you claimed this. What progress have you made? I think is a great way to continue to call in brands and hold them accountable.

Versus this idea of oh, you did this one bad thing. I’m not supporting you anymore.

ELIZABETH: Yeah.

Looking for specifics and asking deeper questions, I think that’s a really good way to kind of start diving deeper to identify the green from the greenwashing.

But as we know, no brand is ever going to be like perfect, particularly within our current systems, and many of the boundaries, especially for smaller brands, in terms of resources like time and money.

And it can be tough to find that point where a brand is doing, quote unquote ‘enough’, but what are some signs that you look for to be able to identify if a brand is actually conscious and sustainable?

CYNTHIA: Yeah.

So back to the term sustainability, and really learning what true sustainability means in fashion. Again, have another video on this, so check out the whole sustainability literacy playlist!

But true sustainability means from start to finish, the entire production process is closed-looped or circular. We aren’t creating a lot of waste that continues to exist on the planet.

So it doesn’t just come down to we use recycled fibers, or we use Lenzing’s Tencel Lyocell — which is a great sustainability minded brand.

But really looking at, okay, from the raw materials and where they get the materials to how are they made, to what dyes they use when they turn that fiber into textiles, how does the water get cleaned or used? Do they use clean energy in that process or do they use fossil fuels?

And then from there, when they cut the garments and the patterns, are they using techniques that reduce the waste from the fabric cut off?

Or are they shipping far? Are all of these different steps along the production process / their supply chain around the world?

Then do they buy and produce at a large scale or are they trying to limit their production runs or just producing on demand?

These are all things across a brand supply chain that you can look at.

And I think in terms of what is enough or not, one of the things that all of us should ask about is ethical labor.

I think in this day and age and with how far we’ve come, I don’t think it’s acceptable anymore to be treating your workers poorly to not paying them living wages. So I think that’s one thing.

The second thing is materials. There are so many more sustainability-minded materials available that aren’t that expensive. So looking for those versus brands that continue to produce synthetics.

Those things are so easy for us to stop buying into to stop producing, because, that is plastic and oil. That stuff continues to sit on our planet.

I think it really spans the entire lifecycle of an item. And then even at the end of its lifecycle, does the brand use biodegradable materials? So once you’re done with it, does it break down?

I know I’m going through so many specifics, but it’s hard not to because I think the definition of sustainability is really vague right now. So a lot of brands leverage that to confuse us.

So just first learning what are all the things that actually go into producing a piece of clothing from start to finish?

And how can a brand care about all those things along the way? I think it’s really important.

ELIZABETH: I mean, there’s a lot to it.

That’s the thing. That’s why its such greenwashing when these fast fashion brands just say well, we’re using recycled fibers now, therefore we’re sustainable.

As you touched on, there are so many other things that we have to think about in a sustainable production system.

But what are some of your favorite conscious fashion brands who are doing a lot? Maybe they aren’t perfect because no brand really can be, but that are really doing some awesome things that you’re excited about.

CYNTHIA: Yeah.

I would say the first one that comes to mind just because we were talking about recycling and everything is Thousand Fell.

So they make sneakers and they use bio-based materials and a lot of it is stuff that can break down and compost, which I think is really amazing.

In terms of their system, I think it’s amazing to see how sustainability minded they are, in terms of every step of that.

At the end, they also take back your sneakers, and they work with a recycling facility to help break that down. So I think they’re a really good example of a brand that cares about trying to do the best in each of those areas and constantly improving on that as well.

In terms of other brands, I talk about sustainability minded brands on my channel, and on my blog, too.

I’m really careful. I like to be careful when I recommend brands, because this is just my opinion at this moment in time with the information I have now.

So that’s why just take all of this with a grain of salt and do your research when you’re watching this.

I always love mentioning Eileen Fisher, because I think they were really the first in the fashion industry to care about the materials, the people that make the clothes, and making clothes that last really long time.

I remember, when I first Googled sustainable fashion, Eileen Fisher was the first brand that popped up.

So they’ve really, in terms of a large brand, I guess been paving the way in terms of what to look out for in fashion, for womenswear specifically.

And Patagonia is another good example.

But having the B Corp certifications, using Bluesign certified dyes and materials, supporting GOTS-certified cotton.

All of these things, as a larger brand I would say, I really admire how committed they’ve been to that.

But I really try to support the smaller brands. I think size-inclusive brands are also really important. Brands that produce on demand are really important.

Another brand that I really admire is Lora Gene. She has a collaboration with Aja Barber, who is also an amazing activist and voice in this space to follow on Instagram and to support her Patreon and stuff.

It’s really hard to name them one off, because my favorite ‘brand’ I would say is thrifting.

I’ll always try to thrift first, and then the brands that I support that produce new pieces are based on what I find that I need in the moment.

So the reason I bought Thousand Fell is because I was trying to find white sneakers for years, and then I found them. So I think it also just depends on your style.

If you are curious about some of the brands that I have bought from or that I’ve supported, just check out the brands listed on my blog, or I have videos on them. I hope that can help!

ELIZABETH: Yeah, I mean it is always changing.

And I understand that hesitation to name specific brands, because as we know, there always can be something that comes out about that brand that we didn’t know before.

But I love that you mentioned that thrifting is one of your favorite brands or sources rather to find conscious fashion.

Could you share with us some of your tips and tricks for shopping secondhand fashion and finding quality pieces that match our style in the kind of the vast supply of secondhand out there.

CYNTHIA: Yeah, I love this question!

Understand that you can thrift any style you want these days.

There’s still a stigma around when you throw out you can only find a certain style of like baggy sweaters or grandma knits or something.

The majority of my wardrobe is thrifted and a lot of people are surprised when they see that because it’s more of an elevated modern, classic style.

But I think there are a lot of pieces that you can find that were made really well that were made a really long time ago with really good quality materials.

So I say the first tip I have for thrifting is going often and having an idea of what you’re looking for.

Because I also think that you don’t want to fall into the rabbit hole of just thrifting whatever you see that you like, because then you’ll also have a cluttered wardrobe.

So being mindful of what your style is and what you’re looking for, I think is really important.

It also helps because it gives you an idea of what to look for when you go to thrift store because there’s always so much stuff.

And then second is looking at the materials. So you can find a lot of really amazing fabrics. I found cashmere, I found silks there.

Since it’s already produced, I’m a bit more lenient when it comes to that stuff. Sometimes I will buy synthetic pieces at the thrift store too, if it’s in a style that I really like.

But I just make it a point to use a microfiber wash bag when I wash them because anything made out of synthetic fabrics leaks microplastics when you wash them into our waterways.

So just like looking at the looking at the fabric when you’re thrifting.

And then I think in terms of thrifting tips, I like to go often and also know that it’s very hit or miss so I don’t let myself get let down if I don’t find anything amazing one or two or three times that I go, because you never know.

So keeping an open mind there, and also not being afraid to go into different ones, not being afraid to go into the men’s section or different sizes.

But the one important thing I want to note there is to not buy plus-sized pieces with the intention of cutting them up or DIY-ing them.

I think that there is this huge issue with people going in and buying a lot of oversized pieces, and then there not being pieces left over for the plus size community.

So I think it’s okay to like an oversized fit. But if you’re going to buy it, and then ruin it, I mean, that’s something that we should stop doing.

And then I think the thrifting landscape has changed a lot too. So it’s not just the Goodwills, Value Villages, and Salvation Army’s out there anymore.

But you can go to really curated consignment shops and thrift boutiques. Then also online, with all the apps out there now, Depop, Vestiaire Collective, there is such access to secondhand clothing worldwide.

And you can filter for certain things too, if you don’t like going into a physical store, and feeling overwhelmed.

So I really think that thrifting should be the first option if you’re ever looking to add anything to your wardrobe. And it’s easier than we think.

I also love that the stigma used to have about being dirty [is fading away].

So I come from like an Asian immigrant family. So my grandma sometimes says like, ‘oh, why are you buying used clothes? You have money, you should buy new clothes.’

But I think fighting back and I think proving that these clothes that people are trying to donate or give away like they’re in good condition still. They’re not dirty or you shouldn’t be afraid of them.

But yeah, those are kind of my tips and tricks, and I hope that they help.

ELIZABETH: Totally, yeah, that was great!

And so full of such helpful advice, as this entire conversation was. So thank you for everything that you did share today. I really enjoyed this chat and I’m sad that it’s coming to a close.

But I do have one final question for you that I asked every guest. And that is, what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

CYNTHIA: Ooh, I love this questions so much.

I’ve talked about this before to my channel, like what does a sustainable fashion future look like.

And for me, it’s one where we repair the relationship we have with our clothes. Where we love everything in our wardrobes and we wear them a long time when make them last.

And two is the people that make the clothes or play a part in the fibers that go into it, the dyeing… like every everybody that a piece of clothing interacts with along the way is paid living wages and has access to food, clean water, and can live a happy life versus living in poverty is something else that I think is really important.

Of course that doesn’t just fall into fashion.

And then I see it as one where all of the materials that we use can continue to be used again. So one where we really have minimized the waste that we cause.

A fashion system that uses solely clean, renewable energy.

One where the farming practices and the way that we harvest and grow materials or crops is regenerative. So we continue to take care of the earth when we take from the earth.

And also one where everyone feels included, whether it’s the styles or the sizes that we offer, and where we offer them, at what prices we offer them at.

I think that there’s a lot there but that’s kind of what I envision for what our future of fashion looks like.

I really don’t think that we can have a better future for fashion unless we start to dig into and change the system.

It’s not just about repairing or making it better, but really just looking at how broken it is and how bad it is, and putting in the work and committing to just changing the entire thing.

Maybe this isn’t something that we can achieve in the next two or three years. But I really do think that in order for us to hav an equitable and sustainable fashion system, all of these moving parts and these pieces need to change. And I hope that one day we can reach that.

ELIZABETH: And that’s a wrap for this episode.

Be sure to take a look at the episode description in your podcast app for the links referenced in this episode, as well as the various links to learn more about today’s guest.

If you would like to spread the word about this show and help the content reach more people, you can share the episode or podcast with a friend screenshot this episode and share about it on Instagram Stories tagging @consciousstyle.

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In this newsletter, I share recommendations for reading, listening to, watching, and much more. To get on that list, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit, and the link to subscribe will also be in the episode description. Thank you for tuning in to the Conscious Style Podcast and sticking around until the very end. I’ll see you again, same time, same place next week!

The post How to Build a Conscious Closet and Become a Consumer Activist with Cynthia Dam appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

In this episode, you’ll also hear Nazma talk about:

• What brands need to do to step up and protect the people making their clothes,
• How the pandemic — and the subsequent order cancellations from brands — affected garment workers in Bangladesh,
• What sorts of shifts we need for a better industry,
• How Awaj Foundation is building solidarity and worker power for garment makers in Bangladesh,
• and more.

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app.

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts.

The transcript of this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast is below.

ELIZABETH JOY: Hey there, and welcome or welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Style Podcast.

This is a very special episode today, because we will be hearing directly from someone who has been leading efforts for worker rights on the frontlines of the garment sector in Bangladesh for decades.

I will be interviewing Nazma Akter, who began her journey working in a garment factory at just 11 years old.

After witnessing ongoing issues and abuses in the garment industry, Nazma founded a trade union, the Sommilito Garments Srakmik Federation, which now has over 600,000 members.

Nazma also founded and currently directs the Awaj Foundation, a worker rights organization in Bangladesh.

So in this conversation with Nazma, you are going to hear a first-hand perspective of what it’s like to work in the garment industry in Bangladesh today.

And Nazma is also going to be talking about:

• What brands need to do to step up and protect the people making their clothes,
• How the pandemic affected garment workers in Bangladesh,
• and what sorts of shifts we need for a fairer and safer industry.

Nazma will also talk about the work that Awaj Foundation is doing in Bangladesh and how we can support that work.

Before we get into this conversation though, I just wanted to quickly remind you to make sure that you are subscribed or are following the Conscious Style Podcast so that you do not miss any future episodes like this one.

And if you are liking the podcast so far, taking a moment to write a short review or give a rating on Apple Podcasts really does go a long way in helping the show reach more people. Thank you for your support!

Okay, now to the show…

Now you are going to hear Nazma starting us off with an introduction of herself, her work, and why she is so passionate about fighting for worker rights.

NAZMA AKTER: I’m Nazma Akter. I started working in the garment sector when I was 11 years old with my mother in Bangladesh.

And from that day until now, I am fighting in Bangladesh for ready-made garment workers in the global supply chain and fast fashion.

We have a lot of challenges and difficulties we are facing in the fast fashion industry because most of the brands come from the USA, Europe, America, UK, Australia, and Canada for the cheap labor. Bangladesh is one of the lowest wages in the supply chain, where garment workers’ salary is less than $100.

Mostly women workers are working and they are coming from the countryside. So the long working hour 10 to 12 hours work, seven days a week. In many cases, gender based violence, harassment, abuse. Also they have no job security and no job protection.

ELIZABETH: Mhm. Certainly a lot of big issues to address in fashion.

As we know, most of the people who buy fashion, particularly fast fashion, in the world — in the US, in countries in Europe and elsewhere — are very detached from who makes our clothes.

And so I think that this conversation we’re going to have is so important to get your first-hand account of what it’s like to work in the garment industry in a place like Bangladesh with your own personal experience, as well as what you know from leading union efforts and running a nonprofit that works with thousands and thousands of garment workers in Bangladesh.

So, you touched on this a little bit, but could you paint a picture for us what it’s like to work in the garment industry today in Bangladesh?

NAZMA: Mostly young and teenage people are working in this sector.

They are coming from the countryside when they are 15 or 16 [years old] or sometimes [younger] to urban areas to work for fast fashion.

They are coming maybe with some relatives or neighbors or maybe a sister or cousin and they start work as a sewing helper or a different assistant type of job.

It is not the happiest job. But you know in Bangladesh we don’t have alternate job opportunities for the poor and less educated people.

So garment jobs are important, but this job does not give any value, any respect, or and dignity.

This job is always exploiting and exploiting. 

It’s the eight year anniversary of the Rana Plaza factory collapse, and we know how this catastrophe and this kind of corporate murder killed 1,137 workers and severely injured thousands of workers.

But fast fashion was not taking any responsibility because in Bangladesh there are a lot of fire incidences and people get severely injured and die but nobody is bothered.

So what is going on? The workers sacrifice their life, [the brands] kill them, and then they concentrate.

So when the people are coming for the lower market, and people are too greedy across the world, including Bangladesh suppliers, they are not thinking about the workers’ life and livelihood, their children, or their family.

They are not thinking about their hunger, because in Bangladesh, most of the garment workers have a malnutrition problem. They don’t have sufficient food.

They don’t have proper housing and shelter or sanitation and drinking.

Many of the garment workers are single mothers because their husbands are cheating, have a fake address and fake marriage and then after they found the man has another wife or children or man is loving with other girls and left them. A woman then has to take all of that responsibility.

And the [lack of] maternity protection is also one of the bad things happening in Bangladesh. Some factory care about the workers maternity protection and try to give them benefits, but in many cases, they do not.

But the big challenge we face is with the daycare center. Garment workers, when they have a baby, after two months they need to come back to work and they send their children to the countryside and then have no breastfeeding rights and the children are staying with their family — grandma or aunt, whoever.

It is also not good for the workers; it’s not good for the children’s mental and physical growth because at least six months you have to breast-feed.

On the other hand, the girls who are coming back to work in the fast fashion industry, she is also mentally very disturbed and mentally upset because her children [aren’t with her] and it also badly affects children’s life.

When they’re working in the factory too much or the workload production pressure they give target that they need to fulfill if they cannot fulfill, the boss is yelling, screaming and shouting, sometimes also physically assaulting.

In many cases, also they cut their overtime or financial deduction.

Gender-based violence is also very easy to do in the factory because the women are earning very low wages. Also, the women are the labor force and the men are the boss.

So you know when people are hungry, when people do not have sufficient food and sufficient things, it is easy to exploit.

That is why boss are asking, I will give you this, I will give you this, and come with me and mutual sexual relation also happen because the women do not have an alternate choice.

In many cases, the girl doesn’t want that. Then the boss creates problems. [They say] she’s not good worker, she’s not a good performer, she’s not well-behaved, and give many excuses then [the worker] needs to leave the factory. And also the brand do not look after them at all.

ELIZABETH: Wow yeah there is a lot to unpack there and really sit with.

But something that I think is important to dive deeper into is that you called the 2013 Rana Plaza Factory collapse in Bangladesh a corporate murder, rather than an accident.

And that language that you used really points to how brands are so complicit in these unsafe, unjust and really exploitive conditions happening in garment factories today.

So what do you think that brands, with their power and their financial capabilities, need to be doing to protect the people making their clothes?

NAZMA: The brands should be taking their responsibility, and they have to implement the international standard and their code of conduct and the UN guidelines, whatever we have.

And brands should ensure living wages, freedom of association, and collective bargaining, and there should be no harassment, no abuse, and there also should be safety.

Now we have the Bangladesh Accord, but we want to continue Accord and also have an international legally-binding accord for safety measures.

Brands should give the fair price [to suppliers] and then workers should get their fair wages. 

There should be commitments, because a brands are taking so much profit, and suppliers also, but our workers are hungry, our workers are beggars. And when Rana Plaza, and all of the accident or murder happen, and [the workers] need to sacrifice their lives.

So peaceful industrial relation and how the workers get a better standard, their livelihood and their living condition.

And that is why they need to plan and properly design the action plan for how the workers should not be hungry and not be cheated by anyone.

So there needs to be responsible business practices, and transparency and accountability is also very important.

Adequate daycare center is very important because our women are leaving this sector due to lack of daycare center and worker-friendly workplace.

ELIZABETH: Absolutely.

So you mentioned the Bangladesh Accord. Could you give us a bit more background on what that is for any listeners that might be unfamiliar with that?

NAZMA:

The Accord is very important because the Accord is a legally binding agreement with the global unions and the fashion brands and retailers.

And it’s a agreement ensuring that safety remediation is established at the workplace. It is very important because when you have a legal binding, if you are violating any rules from any part, there is a system for arbitration, there is a system for a court case.

So that is why it is important, but when it is going to voluntarily anything to do, it is like a charity, someone might do, someone may not do, so that is why the brand should sign the international Accord for all over the world where the garments are being produced, as in Bangladesh.

ELIZABETH: Yeah.

I think that’s a really good analogy of brands’ voluntary commitments being kind of like charity.

Some brands might do it, others (most) will not do it, and so we really need that legally binding aspect there to actually protect workers.

And in addition to the legally binding agreements like the Bangladesh Accord, what other sorts of shifts do you think need to happen for us to actually reach a fairer safer fashion industry?

NAZMA: The powerful changes first need to be equal power distribution system and the previous system needs to be changed.

And systemic change is very important and also power distribution from the brand side and supplier side as well.

The worker should get the equal power and price margins should be fairly calculated where worker will get the decent wages and living wages.

Also in Bangladesh, we don’t have the social protection system like the USA. And in the COVID pandemic, thousands of thousands of workers lost their jobs.

They had no social protection. So the workers were not just scared of the Coronavirus; they are also scared about going hungry.

So, the social protection, the unemployment benefit and insurance policy are very important things that need to be addressed.

And also women empowerment [is important]. Women should be able to raise their voice and women should have no fear and not be scared and have the right to organize and the right to bargain.

And union rights and collective bargaining rights are very important because if the workers have a good negotiation environment and culture enabling creating, they can also increase their betterment.

Also, it can also affect their productivity.

Seems like a charity, but real benefit, real rights, and real recognition is still not in the garment sector or supply chain.

So there should be this kind of system and this kind of power should be everywhere.

And everyone should be respectful and have freedom of expression.

The climate change environmental issue is also a key issue in that whole supply chain and fast fashion because there are also a lot of chemicals and a lot of things that also effect our nature and our life.

ELIZABETH: Yeah.

There are a lot of changes that need to happen in fashion for sure.

Something that you mentioned was the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on garment makers in Bangladesh.

Could you tell us a little bit more about the effects of the pandemic and the subsequent order cancellations from brands on the garment industry in Bangladesh?

NAZMA: Oh my god, I was so disappointed.

I was so depressed and I was almost going to die.

Because the European, American, Canadian, all the brands when they suspended, held, and discounted the goods.

And the company also were giving 35% discounts last year and also worker gave their salary because when [the brands] don’t pay this and also the workers couldn’t get their salary on time.

Every day, every moment there were illegal dismissals. A lot of women were pregnant, and they lost their job and those workers fighting every day.

And when the workers’ job is gone, the single mother is under pressure because many factories also closed down due to order cancellations.

Also there was so called bankruptcy when the bankruptcy happened in Europe or America, then our companies [in Bangladesh] did not get paid, so that also threatened our workers life.

And normally, the brands are paying the bill 45 to 80 days [later] but last time they paid the bill 80 days to 245 days after.

So it’s also when they don’t get the bill they didn’t want to pay the salary, and not a single brand are giving any support — anything at all. Even until now.

From 26th of March last year, Bangladesh started the lockdown then gradually is open and close and not a single brand representative visited a factory and saw how the working conditions were, the social distance, safety conditions, because everything was being monitored online.

But the workers life is threatened; workers life is dangerous and without workers work, the European and American supply chain fashion industry will collapse but [the brands] are not in the factory.

When the workers are working, there should be the CEO of Walmart present in his supply chain. The supplier who is producing for Walmart or other company should be in the factory, but nobody’s doing that. Nobody’s going to do that. But they are going to do that online.

And now Bangladesh is locked down and everything is closed except the garment factories.

And everything is closed so there is no transportation, there are no vehicles, and workers life is so threatened.

They are taking very terrible, dangerous transportation with too many people together and it is too crowded; there is no social distance, no safety.

So this is the way the supply chain is going on.

This is the pandemic; the triple pandemic are facing our workers.

And day by day their job is difficult; their life is getting threatened and many factories have reduced the number of workers and they still need to fulfill their production.

For example, before they had maybe 100 workers. Now maybe they have 85 workers. So the 85 workers have to cover the [missing] 15 workers.

So this is the way that it is happening and this is the way they are working and nobody cares about the worker safety, social distance.

The whole country is on lockdown, but workers life is very threatened and they are working 100% in the factory; 100% production is running.

So where is the social distancing? Where is this worker safety? What is the isolation? Where is the commitment? What will be the compensation? What is the weeks’ benefit? What is that weeks’ allowance? Where is the protection, social protection?

So this is the issue, the fast fashion industry is killing and killing over profiting and they are greedy.

It needs to stop because you know, it’s a pandemic for everyone.

People are not thinking because ‘it is not happening to me.’

And also the business and politics are together. Like in Bangladesh, 80% of the parliament members are business people; some garment owner are the ministers.

Even you can see with the American government with Donald Trump… everywhere the businesses are so powerful.

This capitalism, globalization, neo-liberalization, and also artificial intelligence and robots is killing all the human things.

Even the automation also reduced women’s job in the garment factories because the women are in lower positions, and their jobs are declining due to artificial intelligence.

Nobody’s thinking about the workers. And nobody’s thinking about it because everyone is selfish, but without [the garment workers], the work is not running but nobody is caring about them.

ELIZABETH: Yeah I think that summed it up so well.

Garment makers are fashion’s essential workers, and yet they are so consistently undervalued, underpaid, and really left unprotected.

But as you mentioned, many governments are really in the hands of the businesses — whether that’s the factories in Bangladesh or the fashion brands in the US in Europe — so where can we go from there?

How do we actually drive change and hold the fashion brands and factories accountable when the people who are supposed to be holding them accountable — i.e. the officials that we elected into office — are not doing their job and maybe even don’t have the motivation to do so, given those connections. Like what can we do?

NAZMA: You know, in business, you need to be investing and you need to make profit.

If you’re not investing and you are not caring about your workers, it will not last in the long term or sustain after a lot of time.

So, that is why you need to do that.

Also the governments are committed to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals by 2030. So, if we want to achieve those goals, no one can be behind. If someone is behind and someone in front, it will not work.

That is why the brand has to take their own responsibility to ensure protection and safety is there.

The supply chain is their workers, their people, their goods, so they have to be responsible for this and they have to be accountable.

That is why we need solidarity. We need support from the different stakeholders: unions, organizations, students, consumers, women’s activist groups, everyone needs to be raising their voice for this legally binding and accountability system that needs to be created.

Also, we need to be putting pressure on different government and also we need legal penalties and a due diligence system.

When our workers have been in protest or have any demand, they are blacklisted; they lose their jobs and they are arrested and a lot of things happen.

But when the brand makes mistakes, or a supplier makes mistakes — even the Rana Plaza 8 years ago — because if our workers murder anyone, they would be punished, they will be in jail.

But you know, Rana Plaza collapsed, thousands of workers injured and died, but what is the punishment? What is that system? That kind of system needs to be established and brands should be also held accountable and also penalized with legal charges. So, this kind of system needs to be adopted.

ELIZABETH: Absolutely.

And you are doing so much important work in this regard. So, could you tell us about your work and the work of Awaj Foundation and the Sommilto Garment Sramik Federation?

NAZMA: Awaj Foundation is a grassroots worker rights organization.

So, we mainly focus on these areas: leadership, freedom of association, collective bargaining, living wages, and gender based violence.

These are the key issues and we are trying to empower and create women’s empowerment and leadership where they can bargain and they can organize their own union.

We have area legal aid support, health, training, emergency relief and also cultural programs.

So, we mainly educate workers about their rights and responsibilities, labor law, health, nutrition, financial management, and all kinds of areas.

We also educate the factory management, working towards creating grievance handling mechanisms, engaging in conflict dispute and trust building.

So, we are working very much in a responsible way towards how the company and workers are believing in and trusting each other and make it better.

So, we have various trainings and also we organize. Andour policy is that 80% women should be in the union and be union members. So, that is the way we work.

And we have over 60 unions, 14 collective bargaining, and a few are in pending.

So we have established a 10 percent increase in salary, eight percent increase in salary salary, created a anti-harassment committee, and also we educated factory management about gender-based violence and sexual harassment, abuse, and also established anti harassment communities in the workplace.

And we are also focusing on living wages and where the collective bargaining can increase their salary, and create different allowances.

Also we do demonstrations, lobbying, advocacy, and legal aid support. We are also working with international solidarity [movements] and work towards collaboration action… all kinds of things.

Also we put pressure and campaign against the brands.

So these are the different ways, the different systems and we are gradually making success. But we need to do more and that is why we need to be working together and respectfully believe in each other.

ELIZABETH: Wow. That is truly incredible to hear about the depth and the breadth of all the work that you are doing in Bangladesh. So how can we as listeners get involved and support and amplify your work?

NAZMA: First of all, we need solidarity and we need support.

The issue and we are raising, those are the important issues.

Also we need to get to know each other better because production counties and the receiving countries have a gap into how things are going right or wrong.

Also, we need to network and really create good things.

And also we have to share our struggle, but also we have to share our success because if we are saying everything is bad, bad, bad, bad, it’s also not going to work.

If you are saying everything is good, good good, it does not work.

We need to be balanced.

And also Awaj Foundation is receiving foreign donations.

If people are interested in helping provide legal aid support, awareness training, or emergency relief in pandemic, we need help. Many lost their jobs and many children are also affected when they do not have sufficient food.

Also, people can write a nice article, and people can do so many good things about Bangladeshi garment worker history.

So, there are many ways we can work together and many ways you can support.

And also we have a GoFundMe account for the direct support for the garment workers.

So if you are interested, also you can see and you can visit our website and you can get more interesting thing.

Any kind of support, we are more than happy and welcome however anyone can support with their limitation.

ELIZABETH: Perfect.

Yeah there really is something for anyone who wants to get involved. And I will link everything, the Awaj Foundation website, social media pages, the GoFundMe, and all of that in the episode description and the show notes for listeners to check out and learn more, and maybe donate.

But for now, I would love to close out this really powerful conversation with one final question and that is what does a better future for fashion look like to you?

NAZMA: The next generation of workers, like their children, should have a good education.

And living wages is very important. [They should be able to afford] food, clothes, housing, health, education, recreation and savings.

And that should be addressed and that should be ensuring in the future.

You know our workers are mal-nutritioned, their children also mal-nutritioned, and future of work and future of automation also is killing people’s jobs.

So, [we need] skill building, education, to compete with the artificial intelligence. With the women’s voice, women’s empowerment and the next generation of children’s empowerment, with betterment of education and good jobs, they can create a good environment and love.

ELIZABETH: And that’s a wrap for this episode. Be sure to take a look at the episode description in your podcast app for the links referenced in this episode, as well as the various links to learn more about today’s guest.

For the full transcript of this episode, you can head on over to consciouslifeandstyle.com and navigate to the podcast section of the site. The link to the full show notes should also be linked in whatever podcast app that you are listening on.

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And if you are listening on Apple Podcasts, something that really helps is to leave a rating and review. Thank you in advance for supporting the show and whatever way that you can. For more conscious content, you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit.

In this newsletter, I share recommendations for reading, listening to, watching, and much more. To get on that list, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit, and the link to subscribe will also be in the episode description. Thank you for tuning in to the Conscious Style Podcast and sticking around until the very end. I’ll see you again, same time, same place next week!

The post From the Frontlines: Fighting for Garment Worker Rights in Bangladesh with Nazma Akter appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

• What led to the success of the #PayUp movement and what the current status of this campaign is;
• Why fashion has for too long left out the people side of sustainability, and how harmful this is to the ‘sustainable fashion’ movement;
• What types of transparency we need from fashion brands to actually hold them accountable;
• How we can be allies for the people who make our clothes and center garment workers in conversations about sustainability;
• The power imbalances between workers, factories, and brands, and what can be done to fix this;
• If paying living wages is REALLY as difficult as brands say it is;
• What types of legal reforms we need to transform the industry;
• And more!

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app.

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts.

The transcript of this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast is below.

ELIZABETH JOY: You’re listening to the Conscious Style Podcast, where we explore what it will take to build a better, more sustainable, and equitable future for fashion. I’m your host, Elizabeth Joy.

Now let’s dive into today’s episode. Hey, there, and welcome to another episode of the Conscious Style Podcast. Today, you are going to hear all about the groundbreaking PayUp Fashion campaign from Ayesha Barenblat the founder and CEO of Remake, an incredible ethical fashion nonprofit pushing fashion to be a force for good for people and the planet.

In this episode, you are going to hear Ayesha talk all about:

• What the PayUp Fashion campaign is, what made this movement so successful, and what the current status of that campaign is;
• Why fashion has for too long left out the people side of sustainability, and how harmful this is to the sustainable fashion movement;
• What types of transparency we need from fashion brands to actually hold them accountable;
• How we can be allies for the people who make our clothes and really center garment workers in conversations about sustainability;
• The power imbalances between workers, factories, and brands, and what can be done to help fix this;
• If paying living wages is really as difficult as brands say it is and what it will take for us to actually get there; and more.

So this episode is really packed with information that I think you’re going to find really valuable.

And, there’s a lot of realism and honesty in this conversation with Ayesha talking about what sorts of sustainability efforts aren’t going to cut it and what we really need to push the industry forward.

And this is the kind of stuff that you’re not going to hear from quote-unquote mainstream sustainable fashion conferences or events funded by these big fashion brands.

So I think this is a really important conversation.

Before we get into it, though, I just wanted to quickly remind you to make sure that you are subscribed to or following the Conscious Style Podcast so that you aren’t missing any of these weekly episodes!

And if you are liking the show so far, taking a moment to give a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts can really go a long way in helping this show reach more people. Thank you for your support, and I so appreciate you tuning in to this podcast.

Okay, now let’s get started with Ayesha sharing her story, why she started Remake, and what Remake’s mission is all about.

AYESHA BARENBLAT: I’m Ayehsa, the CEO of Remake, and I have been fighting for the rights and dignity of the women who make our clothes, fashion most essential workers, for some 15 years.

For me, this is really a life’s calling, and not just a job.

As a Pakistani American, I really feel like I need to be using my platform to elevate the voices of the women who are often hidden from our consciousness, that happens to mostly be in the Global South.

In terms of background, I spent a long time on the inside of the fashion industry, both working with brands, and also on the policy side, and realized that there was a seat missing at the table.

And that was all of us as everyday citizens who care about how and who makes our clothes, and where they end up. And that’s really Remake’s founding story.

Our mission is to make fashion a force for good, and we do that in three very concrete ways.

The first is education. There is so much misinformation greenwashing out there and so we really just help break it down.

So anyone who wants to understand, hey, what’s the connection between gender justice, climate, justice, and fashion? We make those free educational resources available on our platform, Remake.World.

The other thing that we do is a lot of transparency work.

People, even when they want to shop their values, when they want to support the better brands, they are often very confused because every brand claims to now be ethical and sustainable.

And so we have a searchable directory where we score brands, we know that you know sustainability is a journey, it can’t be a finite score.

And so we’re constantly looking at whether or not brands are supporting or hurting people and the planet.

And so that transparency work is a way for us as everyday people to hold the industry accountable.

And lastly, which is really the heartbeat of our work that I know we’re going to spend some time talking about is our advocacy efforts.

We know that for so long the fashion industry has just relied on voluntary efforts.

There isn’t a lot of regulation for this very fragmented supply chain, which has meant a race to the bottom, and really, the people who make our clothes working in often dangerous conditions without living wages.

And so a lot of our advocacy work is supposed to hold brands accountable, but also to get politicians to do their job and pass smart regulation so that this industry really can be uplifting a generation of women out of poverty.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, totally. So there is clearly so much that needs to be done to clean up the fashion industry.

And Remake, as you explained, is working to address these issues and make fashion a force for good in so many ways. And one of these ways is the PayUp Fashion campaign.

So could you tell us why you and Remake created this PayUp movement and what it’s all about?

AYESHA: Yeah, you and I have something in common, right? We love fashion.

And when we talk about, cleaning up the industry, it’s about an industry that we greatly love that sells us this beauty and aesthetic, and a way to make us look and feel.

When you look under the hood and things are just not the way they’re supposed to be.

And I think COVID really cracked wide open the injustices and inequities that are baked in the fashion system.

So last year end of February, early March, all of our worlds changed, right?

Many of us were just trying to understand what this pandemic is, offices started to close, we were sitting at home, if we were lucky enough and not essential workers, working from home.

And what that meant was that retail stores panicked, brands — whether European or American — essentially recognized this is something they had never seen before and that with stores closed and likely anticipating sluggish online sales, they didn’t want to bear the burden of dealing with any product coming their way.

So what most brands did, and really this was a unilateral decision across the fashion industry, was to cancel orders. And cancel orders, which the women who work in garment factories that had already spent untold hundreds of hours putting together, where many factories were already out the fabric liability to have bought the product.

Some of the product was either in process or on boats already headed to the US and the UK and other markets.

So for us at Remake, we realized that, if the brands weren’t going to honor these contracts, knowing that garment workers already live paycheck to paycheck, this was going to be the biggest humanitarian crisis of our lifetime facing fashion’s most essential workers.

And so we launched PayUp with a very simple demand. This was not about charity, but about good business practices.

For all of the years of fashion brands talking about sustainability and ethics, what they had to do was the right thing here, honor the contracts and pay up so that garment makers could be paid, especially as COVID started to spread around the world.

And the rest is history in terms of it has been the most successful labor rights campaign of my career.

There were so many civil rights organizations, unions, who worked on it, behind the scenes to hold the brands accountable.

But also it was people like you and our ambassador community, influencers using their platform for good, holding the industry accountable, pushing the brands to do what’s right.

Anytime a brand tried to have a flash sale on Instagram, our community would take over and say, no, no, no, we’re not going to buy anything, unless you pay up.

And I think therein lies the collective power of what all of us can do when we come together as a movement.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, it’s such a powerful movement, as you explained, and I would love to kind of dissect or unpack the PayUp Fashion campaign and explore the seven main action items that have been laid out.

And so action number one is that brands must pay for unpaid orders, as you were talking about all the orders that were canceled when the pandemic hit over a year ago at this point.

So could you tell us what progress has been made in recovering those unpaid bills and stolen wages? And then what the current status is?

AYESHA: Yeah, as you laid out so eloquently, the demand is very simple. It was like, look, you ordered this stuff, you’ve got to pay for it.

Just because you don’t want to deal with the economic fallout, you can’t push that risk on the factories and in turn onto fashion’s most vulnerable workers.

And the pressure worked.

At the start of the pandemic, really, I’d say end of March, early April, when we’re seeing a lot of cancellations, there were a few brands that came to the table.

By the fall of last year, we had 25 brands who agreed to pay up, which, based on UPenn University’s research, has meant that we unlocked $22 billion of that initial $40 billion in canceled orders.

And I’ll say it again, like half of that stolen money in contracts.

And we know from talking to factories that that meant payroll was made. And for our community, it was really a galvanizing moment of what everyday people can do when we stand in solidarity with unions and workers.

So that was incredible. But the work is not yet done.

One of the things that have really been keeping me up at night is, in some ways here in the US, we have vaccines, things are slowly but surely opening up.

I think a lot of us are feeling like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.

But unfortunately, when you look at India and Pakistan and Sri Lanka, and Cambodia, a lot of places where our clothes come from, that is not the case.

COVID is currently ravaging these communities and we are now getting fresh information of older cancellations in India, partly because product won’t ship on time, because people are getting sick. Factories are hotspots for COVID.

So it seems in some ways, brands have learned nothing from the first bit of the campaigning.

Some have committed to not canceling orders through the length of this crisis.

But we continue to chase a long list of brands on doing what’s right here and hoping that with conversations like this, to get people to pay attention.

Because Asia is really in the throes of COVID right now, and it’s where a lot of our clothes are made, and workers have this untenable situation of deciding between their life and their livelihood.

If I don’t go into the factory, I don’t get paid, and then I can’t afford to eat.

But if I do get it, go into the factory and get COVID, and I’m sick — there’s no infrastructure, there are no hospitals, there are no oxygen tanks.

So it’s a very difficult situation.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, ugh. It’s so sad that here we are over a year later, and brands are still canceling orders, still leaving their suppliers scrambling, still not supporting the garment workers that are making their brand’s clothes.

And then meanwhile, we see so many brands — sometimes even the same brands — turn around and advertise their sustainability efforts.

Whether that’s using recycled and organic materials, having a take-back program, using water-efficient dyeing technology, or whatever.

But they’re leaving out the people part of that sustainability equation.

And as action number two of PayUp Fashion outlines, which is the Keep Workers Safe action, the fashion industry must protect the garment workers’ human rights and labor rights.

So what is the danger of leaving out people-centered issues in sustainable fashion?

And then how can we get these big brands to think about people in their sustainability initiatives?

AYESHA: I’m so glad you asked this question.

In our community, I think we really recognize how intersectional these issues are.

You can’t talk about the planet without talking about people because it is intrinsically linked.

And one of the reasons that fashion brands often talk about the environment, but really say nothing about people is because there are some environmental efforts — at least when it comes to energy efficiency or water efficiency — that you’re saving money.

But when it comes to living wages, it turns out that that actually costs you money.

And so for too long, as long as brands have owned the sustainability narrative, it has been centered on environmental — and really incremental environmental inroads — but not really looking at people.

And for us, [sustainable fashion] has always been intersectional.

COVID has taught us the people at the frontline of supply chain shocks and ruptures are the very people that are working on the factory floor.

These are the same communities that were just grappling with a cyclone in India, flooding is common in Bangladesh. You look at the unprecedented heat levels in my hometown of Karachi, Pakistan.

The essential workers who make our clothes are also in the frontline of climate shocks.

And so we have to have the fashion industry focus on this in an intersectional way.

And that’s really what our Keep Workers Safe campaign demand is all about.

It’s the 8 year anniversary of Rana Plaza, and we currently have only two brands, Asos and Tchibo, who have publicly committed to renewing their commitment to the Bangladesh Accord.

For those listening, it was a landmark agreement for brands to really have skin in the game.

[The Bangladesh Accord is a] binding agreement to keep the workplace and buildings safe, and we can’t see that agreement expire.

But even given the recent wake of industrial accidents, fires in other places, we know that we need to be extending the Accord to other places to Pakistan, to Cambodia.

First and foremost, when we think about safety, it’s about the physical building safety.

Because often the infrastructure is not there, the buildings have been built very quickly, and fire hazards, industrial accidents are par of the course to this industry.

But beyond just the physical building, as we have seen in COVID, garment makers have no safety net.

We were talking earlier about, you’ve got to decide whether you risk getting COVID and go into work, it’s because you are living paycheck to paycheck.

And even though brands have signed some very public commitments with International Labor Organization, and USAID, here we are 15 months later, and there has been no substantive direct relief.

Even though order volumes are shrinking, and in some places vacillating, and workers, unlike here, they don’t have unemployment; they don’t have social safety nets to catch them.

And so part of our campaigning is, look, you need to be protecting the workers in this crisis now.

Where is your philanthropic efforts when you talk about COVID relief? Why isn’t it actually getting to the people who are making your product?

And in the long term, you need to put money towards severance.

Because this is the thing that garment workers get hired on short-term contracts; they get hired and fired.

And there is no ability if you get pregnant if you get sick if you get hurt, anyway for you to be protected.

So safety, the way we look at it is in a very holistic way.

We need binding agreements.

We need to assure that unions are recognized, that there isn’t union-busting activity happening in factories.

Because only when you have workers feeling safe in a workforce is when they are more treated as an asset, rather than a cost center, the way the industry currently treats them.

ELIZABETH: There was so much there, but something that really stood out to me was when you said that brands are “owning the sustainability narrative.”

And I think that points to some of these power imbalances in the fashion industry that these brands just because they have huge budgets — not because they know more about sustainability, or that they are in it for the right reasons — but just because they have those millions or billions of dollars to push into the marketing, they’re able to kind of control that story.

AYESHA: Exactly.

ELIZABETH: And its concerning.

AYESHA: Completely. Like for those of us who’ve been working for years and years on this, right?

I mean, 15 years ago, Elizabeth, nobody was talking about sustainability.

And in some ways, we now have sustainable fashion become more mainstream.

But the brands again, look at this as a marketing opportunity to sell more product and have in many ways co-opted the movement versus we’re here to say no, no, no.

If you want to go about sustainability, it’s very simple.

We want you to know about gender justice and climate justice.

And if you’re not centering on those two areas, then really, it’s just greenwashing.

ELIZABETH: Yeah.

And we do see that greenwashing happening all the time in the industry.

If listeners do want a bit more background on what greenwashing is, and how you can identify it in the fashion industry, I do have actually an entire podcast episode dedicated to that very topic.

It is episode number four if you wanted to go back and listen to that.

But yeah, generally, I’m just very skeptical of any sustainability claim from these big brands for many of these reasons that you mentioned Ayesha.

And that’s why I think action number three of the PayUp Fashion campaign is so important.

And action number three is all about going transparent, talking about the need for transparency from brands in fashion.

So I would love to know, what types of transparency do we need from brands?

And then how can we make sure that it’s actually trustworthy information being shared because we know that what these companies are sharing is not always the most truthful or accurate.

AYESHA: Yeah, it’s so difficult, right?

And the thing is, if you look at a corporate social responsibility report, you know what… they’re like 60, 70, 80 pages long?

I talked to our everyday citizen community, and they’re like, we don’t know what to look for. We don’t have time to be digging through these reports.

Nothing is comparable. It’s hard to compare what substance versus what’s just pretty language.

And so we sat down with experts to say, okay, fundamentally, what are the things that we need?

Because we know sunshine is the best disinfectant. And that transparency is a first step in starting to clean up the supply chains.

Through that, our transparency focus is really on three things.

The first is, well, we need to know where the product is made. And there has been some progress where some brands will tell you where at least the product is cut and stitched.

But as you’ve seen in recent stories, with the crisis of the Uyghurs being essentially in forced labor, human rights detention camps in China, where a lot of our cotton comes from.

We know that a lot of the human rights abuses and conditions are not just where the blouse or the top may be cut and stitched, it has to go all the way up to raw material.

So, first, we want to know, well, where is it? Where is the stuff being made?

We don’t just want to know the country. We want to know the farms, we want to know the factories.

And that’s really important for regulators, for activists, because then we can triangulate when we get complaints or hear from unions about what’s happening.

Because often workers aren’t necessarily able to tell us who they’re sewing for.

So, from a transparency standpoint, we need that traceability across the supply chain.

The second — and this is something no fashion brand ever wants to tell you — is wages.

It’s like, if you talk to any labor organizer, union leader, they’re like, it’s not that complicated.

If a brand says they’re committed to the well-being of the makers, of the people who make their product, then share how much you’re paying.

We know, the data is out there that almost no factory workers today make anything close to a living wage.

And so again, if the brands were to put wages in the public domain, it would be a first step towards then looking at well how much does the executive make? How much does your CEO make? And then why does the average maker in Bangladesh or Cambodia make the low poverty line wages?

And the final thing is that as the industrial disasters over time, different issues have captured press attention, or citizen attention, there’s been this entire private sector complex.This like, multimillion-dollar industry of auditors.

So these are people who are going into the factories looking for human rights concerns, they write up reports, they write up, what the brands must do to correct these issues.

But the problem is that there is no transparency there.

And lot of these auditing firms are for-profit, they’re on the payroll of brands, the reports are only made available to the brands.

For workers, it’s very hard to know, well, based on what’s reported, are things going to get better?

And so outside of knowing well, where’s the product made? How much are you paying for it? We want brands to put that information in the public domain.

Because that’s the kind of good information where then you have a way to measure, do you have these many safety violations? Or you have this much overtime in your factories? Is it getting better over time? Or is it getting worse?

Because currently, the brands get to cherry-pick what sustainability information they’re putting out there. And guess what? If they don’t reach certain goals and milestones, they just change the goals.

And then there’s no one there to hold them accountable.

Remember when H&M made the living wage commitment, and then that just sort of went away?

So that’s why we push for consistent information on wages, on factory audits, and on the entire list of where the product is coming from.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, I mean, that example, with H&M’s failed living wage campaign where they got a ton of free PR for saying that they were going to ensure living wages, and then their self-imposed deadline came…

And they could not prove that anybody in their supply chain was earning living wages and that campaign just quietly went away from their website.

I mean, that’s what happens when we let brands lead the way. So that’s not how we’re going to create a better future for fashion.

As action number four of the PayUp, Fashion campaign highlights, fashion needs to center garment workers if we are to build a truly equitable industry.

So then why do you think that garment makers are all too often left out of the conversation?

And how can we be allies for the people who make our clothes, the world’s clothes, making sure they’re centered and represented in a really meaningful way?

AYESHA: Yeah, for me, this was always very puzzling.

As someone who has spent most of her career in production hubs, in factories, in mills, I have had the pleasure in my career to get to know, meet with, have meals with, the incredible, fierce, resilient women leaders who bring their clothes to life.

And, I have always been struck from Haiti to Cambodia to Sri Lanka, on how clear she is. And I say she because we know 80% of this industry’s workforce, particularly at the cut-sew level is women.

And just how clear she is on what she needs in order to not just do her job well and productively, but to be safe and to take care of her family.

And even though brands have dabbled with hotlines or audit data here and there, often, it’s just very extractive.

It’s sort of they’re doing this for their image, they take take take from workers in terms of input, but they’re not really giving them an active seat at the table.

And similarly, it’s been fascinating, you go to all of these very glitzy sustainable fashion conferences — Copenhagen Fashion Summit, or the BSR conference, or anywhere in the alphabet soup of the multi-stakeholder efforts that are really for-profit institutions a lot of them — bringing together brand voices, but she’s largely absent.

The very people that these efforts are supposed to be professing to address. She’s just not there. Not on the plenary stages, not in these multi-stakeholder initiatives.

And so that’s why our fourth demand is about giving garment makers center stage. And, I think this is something that each of us can do in our work.

Often, when we at Remake, get speaking engagements — right now it’s on zoom — our request is, look, we need a union leader voice or a garment maker voice, otherwise, we have to politely decline.

Because I’m an ally, right?

I can speak of the issues, I can look at the data, I can use my platform to amplify her voice. But at the end of the day, we have to go to the source.

And so if there are influencers listening in, if there are brand representatives, if there are sustainable conference planners, I think this is one way for us to start to chip away at this brand led narrative is to give these plenary stages, these multi-stakeholder efforts, this conversation to assure that garment makers have equal representation, leadership representation.

Because otherwise, we are simply not going to elevate her demands. And that’s just not how you make progress.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, and that’s something I think Remake does so well. I love how you are always incorporating garment workers.

So for listeners, I am a Remake Ambassador, and so I attend these meetings that Remake holds each month and you often bring in garment makers, union leaders, and make sure that their voices are heard.

And I think the first time that I really did attend a panel or an event where garment makers were speaking and so..

AYESHA:
Oh, that makes me so happy. That’s amazing. That makes me so happy.

ELIZABETH: Yeah! And it inspired me to think about that in terms of guests for my podcast.

And I’m really excited that I’m having Nazma of Awaj Foundation on the show, for instance, and I look forward to having other union leaders and organizers and current garment makers or former garment makers.

So it is making a difference, I think what Remake is doing and leading that discussion because it was something really lacking in this sustainable fashion movement, I would say even.

And just wanted to say that that you definitely are making an influence. You influenced me. So I’m sure you’re influencing tons of other people.

AYESHA: [Laughs] That’s wonderful. And Nazma is a force of nature, she had a big hand in writing these seven action points.

She will tell her own story, but as someone who really grew up on the factory floor, it’s going to be a treat for your listeners to be able to hear from her.

ELIZABETH: Absolutely.

I’m really looking forward to sharing that conversation with everybody. So one of the ways that the power imbalances in the fashion industry play out is through these lopsided agreements with brands and factories and workers.

And action number five of the PayUp Fashion campaign is all about signing pro-worker and enforceable contracts.

So could you tell us what is wrong with the contracts now in the industry? And how do they need to be better?

AYESHA: Yeah, when we started campaigning around, PayUp, we had a lot of everyday people very confused.

They were like, well, how can this be? What do you mean to cancel the orders? Can they do that?

And it turns out, as you start to dig through the contracts, that the asymmetry of power, as you pointed out, is absolutely there.

The entire fashion industry, first and foremost, operates on debt.

So it’s the factory’s job to get the fabric, to run the materials, to pay the workers, and ship the product.

And in some ways, the brands are hedging on this bet of depending on what sells and then paying the factories with it being standard to not pay for 60, 90, and in some contracts that I’ve seen even 120 days.

So the contracts are written in a way where the brands are essentially pushing all of the financial risk onto the factories, who in turn are pushing all that risk onto workers.

We similarly saw this with the bankruptcy proceeding with COVID. JC Penney, there were a number of iconic or traditional retailers that entered bankruptcy proceedings, and you see how suppliers are really last in line in terms of getting paid.

And so part of our action and work is around for brands who say, we’re committed to improving our purchasing practices and committed to sustainability is, well, it first and foremost starts with contracts.

And why is it that you have a supplier Code of Conduct — so almost all brands would have these very long contracts where they’ll tell factories, you will not do overtime, you will not hire children, you will ensure health and safety — but there’s no such thing as a Buyer Code of Conduct.

And I think there shouldn’t be, right?

If this is a true business partnership, then there should be some skin in the game on the brand side as well on you will put a percentage of money down when you sign the contract.

If there are, forces that play like a global pandemic or a future climate shock, then you’re not going to leave the factory and the orders high and dry.

And it’s also industry practice right now that because of this force majeure contract clause, that regardless of what happens, a lot of the brands can just make the unilateral decision to cancel contracts.

So, we are calling upon having the types of payment terms so that workers are not left high and dry as they were in the pandemic.

The final thing here really is around — we often talk about wages, but there’s another piece of this puzzle…

And that’s around how erratic, especially with fast fashion brands and ultra fast fashion brands, how erratic the production planning and delivery schedules are. Brands want things sooner, faster, cheaper.

And that has a very real cost, on not just the wages, but also the physical and mental health of garment makers.

So what we’re wanting to see in contracts is better planning and better delivery schedules so that workers can have a humane pace of work.

The last bit in this from a contractual standpoint has become very trendy in the industry to be talking about automation to be talking about robotics, and AI and all of these ways that this is going to become a more mechanized workforce.

But what we are wanting to see is also some language around responsible transitions.

Countries like Cambodia and Bangladesh, very heavily rely on the garment industry. And if that industry is to shrink, or change, or the workforce, you’re going to need less, what’s to happen to these millions of women who this is predominantly their livelihood?

And in COVID, we’ve seen that she’s been left high and dry, right? Like protesting out on the streets, asking for her wages, left without safety nets.

So if this is really a moment to learn, and build back better, we want brands to start having these conversations with their strategic suppliers about responsible transitions so that they can’t just pull out without warning.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, you pointed to two really huge important things that we need to be keeping in mind.

The impact of climate change-driven or exasperated natural disasters and weather occurrences, as well as the rise of automation.

I mean, both of these things will, and even are already having a huge impact on garment workers. So, these are things that we have to consider and more reasons why we need those legally binding contracts that will hold brands accountable.

Because as the pandemic proved, brands will just leave their factories, leave the garment workers that they relied on for so long, they’ll just leave them high and dry, in order to protect themselves, to shore up their own profits.

And then, of course, another huge issue in fashion when it comes to protecting garment workers is wages.

We’ve talked about this already, but I would love to dive into this topic a bit deeper because a lot of brands and retailers say that paying living wages is quote-unquote, difficult.

AYESHA: Of course it is because it’s gonna cut into the profits!

ELIZABETH: Right, exactly. And some excuses might be that they do not own their own factories, or they do not directly employ garment makers.

s it really as hard to ensure living wages for makers as brands say it is? I think I know what you’re gonna say, but I would love to hear your answer.

AYESHA: We have been stuck for more than two decades of brands saying we’re doing pilot projects, we are doing research.

Every conversation I’ve had with a major fashion brand, it’s always in a pilot phase.

And the truth is, we have a race against time to assure protections and living wages for garment makers, especially as the industry consolidates, and with contracts, as we were talking about earlier.

So the truth is, it’s not hard to calculate a living wage for garment makers.

You understand the weekly expenses, what the real data is, how many humane hours they’re working…

There are living-wage studies out there and the thing that has been most easy for me to understand in all the research is that it’s something like $1 more on a $20 t-shirt.

So it’s less about the research and more about the implementation. And frankly, putting wages front and center in this conversation.

So many brands today have these faux feminist pilots. They’re talking about “empowering” women by teaching them about health and sanitation or teaching them how to better read their paycheck.

The truth is, any garment maker, any union organizer that you will talk to will say, we don’t need training, we don’t need you to teach us how to [be empowered], we will empower ourselves.

All we need is to be paid more.

And so for us, it’s really just increasing the drumbeat around: it’s about wages.

And, for brands to year over year, report to us how they’re making progress towards real living wage targets, rather than some of these wellbeing and other efforts.

These may be nice, but they don’t get to the substance of what is going to leave these women whole.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, it distracts from the real issue.

AYESHA: Completely. So distracting.

And really, the other piece of this is the prices.

So one of the things that brands will never share — because they say it’s competitive information — is how much are you pricing a good for?

And knowing that everything else is getting expensive, with the way you ship product, the prices of commodities, thinking about transportation, the one variable cost that brands want to continue to squeeze and squeeze — which is why they operate in places like Ethiopia, where you really don’t have a minimum wage — is assuring that workers are making subhuman wages.

The business model is built in this way.

And so I believe the reason we haven’t made progress with living wages is because brands continue to put downward pressure on the price of garments themselves in terms of what they pay factories.

ELIZABETH: Right.

And so it’s clear that the voluntary Corporate Social Responsibility initiatives and all of these sustainability pages, these confusing sustainability reports coming from brands are not really leading us anywhere.

And so the final action, number seven, of the PayUp Fashion campaign is demanding that brands help pass laws to hold the industry accountable.

So what types of legal reforms do we need in fashion to make it a more equitable industry?

AYESHA: I mean, you nailed it.

In some ways, we ordered these in terms of importance. With seven being, in some ways, the most important thing that we have to make progress towards.

Because look, here we are 30 years of codes of conduct, of voluntary efforts, of private sector audits, and yet we are talking about the exact same issues.

And so we know that, brands from the goodness of their heart — especially if they’re publicly traded companies that have to turn a profit for the investors, for their shareholders — that it’s a myth that we need to debunk that somehow they’re going to take care of people and planet and think about climate limitations and think about the workforce that brings their product to life while also paying their executives handsomely and growing year over year to keep enriching their shareholders…

Like it just doesn’t work, this notion of the triple bottom line.

So the thing that we need to do is get some of the other actors at the table — really, frankly, politicians to do their job.

This is a mostly deregulated industry.

It’s astonishing to me how little regulation there is in the fashion industry, but I’d say that there are some bright spots.

As you know, we have been very heavily involved in building a business coalition and assuring the passage of the Garment Worker Protection Act here in California, and in some ways, good regulatory reform should start right here at home.

And, why California?

Well, it’s home to the largest base of manufacturing [in the United States]. Some 46,000 garment makers that today make upwards of $2.68, on a piece-rate system.

So this bill, the Garment Worker Protection Act, would essentially say, look, you want productivity targets, that’s great. But we have to make sure that the baseline of a $15 minimum [hourly wage] is paid.

And that we’re holding multilateral accountability [system where] factories and brands have to make sure that the makers of the product are paid.

I really do think that that sort of smart regulation which just passed the Senate, if it’s passed into law, would be a big win for this movement.

And I think there are other interesting bits of regulation bubbling.

A group of us wrote to President Biden saying we need to hire a Fashion Czar, appoint someone as a Fashion Czar in order to start to think about policy in a more structured way.

Because for too long, this industry has really governed itself, and, the results speak for themselves.

ELIZABETH: Right.

So so well said. I mean, we can see that the brand-led initiatives, the voluntary efforts — they’re not working. We need something with teeth, with accountability, that really centers workers.

And that’s why I’m really excited about the PayUp Fashion campaign, because it is such a comprehensive campaign, as we just broke down in this entire interview.

How can all of us get involved with the PayUp Fashion campaign? Support it, amplify it? What can we do?

AYESHA: I am so glad you asked this question because I really do believe that it’s the collective little steps that we all take as a community.

Our ambassadors, as you know, Elizabeth, are the heartbeat of our movement.

It’s people like you, using your platform for good, using your voice for good, that managed to get these billions of dollars recovered in canceled contracts.

So for people listening in, I’d say, don’t get overwhelmed.

The very first step you can do is to go to payupfashion.com and sign the petition.

Now you might say, hmm, what does signing a petition do?

Well, it turns out that the way we’ve set up the petition, some 200 brand executives get an email every time someone signs it.

And we know from the first time around when we were dealing with order cancellations, once 270,000 people signed the petition, we suddenly managed to get brands to call back.

First and foremost, it’s about signing the petition, make your voice heard.

I’d say for those who are on Instagram, give us a follow at @remakeourworld. We try and make this information, the campaigning cycles, and the breaking news, in bite-size, easy-to-digest chunks.

So it’s a way to stay in the know, to tag brands and ask them the questions so that they know that their end customers are paying attention and do want them to do what’s right, whether it comes to living wages or transparency.

Finally, I’d say for those who are really looking for a community to lean into, become an ambassador.

And I’d love if I could, Elizabeth to ask you a question: why did you become an ambassador?

What value do you see in that? Because at least my thinking with that was activism can be lonely and what we need to do is create a thriving community of changemakers that can support one another because all of these issues that we’ve talked about… these are long fights and trying to do this alone can be quite lonely.

ELIZABETH: Exactly and that’s a huge reason why I joined the Remake Ambassador program, was the community aspect.

And honestly, I don’t know of any program that’s comparable to Remake’s with the monthly meetings, the resources, the access to educational content, the ability to connect with so many other like-minded fashion activists. So I really appreciated that aspect.

And I would say that a second reason why I joined the Remake ambassador program is that I was kind of at a point in my journey where I had been engaged with conscious consumerism for a while. And of course, I still am.

But I was feeling like I wanted to do more. I wanted to go beyond supporting the brands doing it right and really get into some of these systems at play and push for all brands to ensure a bare minimum; ensure that every garment worker is earning a fair wage and working in safe conditions.

I didn’t really know how to funnel this energy, and Remake really provides the tools to make this passion or commitment towards pushing for a better future for fashion, it really helps you put it into action.

And so I would say that those were the two main reasons that I joined the Remake ambassador program!

AYESHA: That makes me so happy. Yes, I really do believe, when good thoughtful people come together, it’s the kind of good trouble that we can make.

And, to your point, I think it’s very difficult for us to think about these complex issues and wicked problems that we are somehow going to fix by buying very little or only shopping consciously.

I mean, I think all of those things are wonderful.

But to your point about how do we get to this systematically? It’s really building this grassroots movement.

ELIZABETH: For sure. And are there any other ways that we can support Remake and get involved with Remake’s work?

AYESHA: Well, one of the ways, if you are able to give, I think for people to know we are a 501c3 nonprofit, and what that means is every donation goes towards the work.

It’s about holding the industry accountable. It’s about providing all the free resources that we do to our ambassador community.

And we take no money from the fashion brands because we really believe that that’s the way for us to stay pure to our mission.

So people tell me, oh, I just forego my $5 Starbucks, or what have you, put you on a reoccurring donation, and I know that that’s making a difference in the world.

So that would be one way, if you can give, to give.

But if that is difficult, because I know people are really hurting right now, then know that your voice matters, too.

And just raising your voice asking the right questions… all of that makes a difference as well.

ELIZABETH: Yes.

So many ways to support and get involved and I will put the links to all of that in the show notes as well as the episode description so people can look further into everything.

All right, to close out this interview, Ayesha, I’d like to ask you one final question. And that is what does a better future for fashion look like to you?

AYESHA: If I were to dream of a better fashion future, it’s a way of us to be making a beautiful product where we know where it has come from, who has made it, we know that she’s living a life of dignity, with living wages, and a humane pace of production.

Because of that, it means that I as the end customer am valuing that product more, I’m loving it because I know the maker, I know that I’m wearing my values.

And the interesting thing in this sort of dream scenario is if we are paying her more and she is working less, we’d also be reducing our carbon, climate, and water emissions, because we’d be producing less stuff.

ELIZABETH: And that’s a wrap. for this episode. Be sure to take a look at the episode description in your podcast app for the links referenced in this episode, as well as the various links to learn more about today’s guest.

For the full transcript of this episode, you can head on over to consciouslifeandstyle.com and navigate to the podcast section of the site. The link to the full show notes should also be linked in whatever podcast app that you are listening on.

If you would like to spread the word about this show and help the content reach more people, you can share the episode or podcast with a friend screenshot this episode and share about it on Instagram Stories tagging @consciousstyle.

And if you are listening on Apple Podcasts, something that really helps is to leave a rating and review. Thank you in advance for supporting the show and whatever way that you can. For more conscious content, you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit.

In this newsletter, I share recommendations for reading, listening to, watching, and much more. To get on that list, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit, and the link to subscribe will also be in the episode description. Thank you for tuning in to the Conscious Style Podcast and sticking around until the very end. I’ll see you again, same time, same place next week!

ABOUT AYESHA:

Ayesha is a social entrepreneur with a passion for building sustainable supply chains that respect people and our planet. With over 15 years of leadership to promote social justice and sustainability within the fashion industry, she founded Remake to mobilize citizens to demand a more just, transparent, and accountable fashion industry. Remake’s free educational resources, advocacy campaigns, and sustainable brands directory are focused on making fashion a force for good.

Ayesha has worked across the public, private, and civil society sectors to promote the rights and dignity of the women who make our clothes. Prior to founding Remake, she led brand engagement at Better Work, a World Bank and United Nations partnership, to ensure safe and decent working conditions in garment factories around the world. Prior to this, she ran the fashion vertical at BSR, providing strategic advice to brands on the design and integration of sustainability into business. She has a master’s degree in public policy from the University of California, Berkeley.

CONNECT WITH AYESHA & REMAKE:

• Website
• Instagram
• Twitter
• YouTube
• Facebook

The post Fashion Activism: It’s Time for Brands to #PayUp with Ayesha Barenblat appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

In this interview, you’ll hear (or read!) about:

• What pre-loved fashion encompasses and how you can get started not only with conscious shopping secondhand, but with secondhand fashion activism;
• What the concern about gentrification of thrift stores is all about and what this conversation is currently missing;
• How charity shops really operate and what this means for the global secondhand trade;
• What the recent $1 billion+ IPO (initial public offering) of ThredUP might mean for the future of secondhand;
• And more!

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app.

Quick Links: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or Google Podcasts.

The transcript of this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast is below.

ELIZABETH JOY: You’re listening to the Conscious Style Podcast, where we explore what it will take to build a better, more sustainable, and equitable future for fashion. I’m your host, Elizabeth Joy. Now let’s dive into today’s episode!

Hey there and welcome to another episode of the Conscious Style Podcast. Today we are going to be talking all about the secondhand fashion ecosystem with guest Emily Stochl, the producer and host of Pre-Loved Podcast, a weekly interview show that explores all things vintage, thrift, and secondhand.

I am going to be chatting with Emily in this episode about:

• What pre-loved fashion encompasses and how you can get started, not only with shopping secondhand thoughtfully but with secondhand fashion activism as well.
• We also are talking in detail about the concern of the gentrification of thrift stores and what this conversation might be missing.
• And I also had to ask Emily about her thoughts on the recent news of secondhand fashion retailer ThredUP being valued at over one billion US dollars and traded on the stock market — and what she thinks that this means for the future of secondhand.
• Finally, Emily is going to be sharing some fantastic insights into how charity shops operate, and what this means for the global secondhand trade.

So, we clearly have a lot of ground to cover, and we will get right to the episode in just a moment. First, though, I wanted to remind you to subscribe or follow the Conscious Style Podcast on your favorite podcast app so that you do not miss any future conversations like this one.

And if you are enjoying the podcast so far, it would mean so much if you could take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts as this will help the content reach more people and help me continue producing this show. Thank you in advance!

All right, now let’s get into this conversation with Emily. Emily is going to start us off here with her story and how she got into secondhand fashion…

EMILY STOCHL: I’m Emily Stochl. I’m the host and creator of Pre-Loved Podcast and I create content around vintage, secondhand, climate activism, garment worker solidarity, and sustainability over on my Instagram, which is @emilymstochl.

But actually, the way that I got into this space — you know, the sustainability journey — actually, for me started with labor activism.

I really believe that social sustainability, or the ethical side of the industry, is just as important. Like the people side is just as important as the climate side of this story.

But basically, my grandma, who was really involved in my upbringing was a labor activist, she worked in a factory, she built carburetors. And, she was, you know, a single mom of six kids and life was really hard for her.

But, you know, one privilege that she did have was that she had a union job. And so even though she did participate in a lot of walkouts, or strikes, she was able to provide for her family. So she kind of raised me with understanding that importance of a good union job.

And, of course, that’s few and far between in the US today…

I often think about, what would my grandma’s story have been like, as a single mom raising six kids in 2020. And if she were my age in my shoes at that time, kind of what her life would have been like, and how much harder it could have been.

So anyway, worker solidarity has always been really important to me.

I started thrifting in high school and college the way that a lot of people do, just because it’s fun and cheap. A cheap way to buy new clothes when you’re balling on a budget with your babysitting money, or whatever!

And… I didn’t think much more of it. I didn’t really think about how it connected to my values or anything like that.

But around 2013, when the Rana Plaza Factory collapse happened, and then shortly after the True Cost documentary came out, it was then that I started to realize that the fashion industry was a worker rights issue.

That there are people being really mistreated within this industry and that so many of us are complicit in it.

And at that point that I would say that that was my quitting fast fashion moment, although I was already really into thrifting. So it wasn’t a particularly dramatic shift for me. I just decided that it was going to be secondhand for me; that was what I was going to do.

Then, I kind of got deeper and deeper into this space. I started to learn more about it as you do as you get passionate about a topic.

I started to realize that within the world of sustainable and ethical fashion — at the time, this is several years ago now — there wasn’t as much conversation around the secondhand side of things, and that was what I was really passionate about.

There were so many incredible resources starting to come out about the fashion industry and its issues and there wasn’t something that specifically focused on secondhand at that time.

So I decided that I would make the podcast I want to see, I guess, and I started interviewing folks about their work in the secondhand industry, and it’s been three years of doing so.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that story and background. So you’re quite experienced in the secondhand fashion space.

So, could you give a little bit of a definition or give some context into what secondhand fashion exactly is and what it encompasses for those maybe newer to the term and to the space?

EMILY: For sure.

So I came to use the word pre-loved because I feel like that encompasses any clothes that had a life before me.

So vintage clothes: that’s technically defined as clothes that are 20 plus years old.

Thrifted: people think of that as like clothes you get at a discount price from a thrift store.

But then there’s like secondhand shops, there are buy-sell-trade shops.

Even the things we say are secondhand, like they could be third-hand, fourth-hand, who knows how many people have given those clothes a life before.

Clothes can even be swapped or rented, so on and so on.

For me, I like to prioritize things that aren’t new. So anything that had a life before me, any way that I can avoid new production, is really what my aim is.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, I really like that term pre-loved as well, because it is more general. And I think sounds cooler as well.

EMILY: It’s like fun, right?

I don’t know, “secondhand”… it’s fine.

But it’s like less good maybe. I don’t know, like, it’s not new. Whereas pre-loved, it’s like, oh, someone else loved this too!?

ELIZABETH: Right, and it puts this emphasis on building a relationship with our clothes and our wardrobe, which is such a crucial part of slowing down fashion and creating a more sustainable fashion system. So I really love that.

So what advice do you have for a person who is just getting started out with pre-loved fashion?

EMILY: Yeah, so honestly, my best tip for folks who are just getting into it, maybe they’re overwhelmed of going into a big thrift shop, or there’s not a great thrift shop in their area, or of course, like with the past year and a half that we’ve been in the pandemic, maybe people haven’t wanted to go out and about and try thrifting.

So I really encourage people to look at all the options we have for secondhand online.

Between the Depops, Poshmarks, ThredUPs, online vintage shops, and Instagram vintage shops, the options are limitless.

And it’s really become quite similar to the experience of buying new clothes online.

You need to know your measurements. I personally look at a size chart when I order from most places online, and so I know my measurements: bust, waist, and hip measurements, typically.

And then you’ll find the thing that you want, you’ll see that it’s in your size, you get all the item details on it, you order it to be shipped to your house and you try it on.

If you’re really new to it, and you haven’t quite cut out fast fashion yet, what I especially recommend is to look at brands that you know you like to shop at, especially if you’re familiar with what your sizing is in those brands.

I mean, if you’re a J.Crew person, you can search J.Crew and put in your sizes and you can find things that are like pretty much brand new being sold on secondhand sites.

So you don’t have to be quirky or off-brand or anything like that. I mean, do that if you want — that’s my style, for sure!

But you can get stuff that is pretty much new, but you can buy it pre-loved and you’ll save money doing it too.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, so many great tips there. And I’ve totally done that with searching for specific brands, or sometimes even specific products, on online secondhand fashion marketplaces.

I use Pinterest a lot for my style inspiration. But a lot of the time I’ll see an aesthetic from a brand that I don’t really want to support. Maybe it’s a fast fashion brand. So I’ll literally go to Poshmark and type in that specific product and find it for a third or even less of the original price.

And usually, these pieces are very gently used. Sometimes they’re even new with tags, which is good for me as a secondhand fashion shopper, but points to some larger issues about overconsumption.

But anyway, I think that this ease of shopping secondhand fashion online has definitely been a big driver of the rise in popularity of secondhand fashion.

And so I’m curious to get your thoughts about what you think makes this rise in popularity exciting and maybe if there’s anything that we should be aware of with this increase of interest?

EMILY: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it’s very, very exciting that secondhand is becoming more popular and that stigmas around secondhand are starting to fade away.

I suppose my only caveat is that secondhand needs to become popular with the intent that we’re rapidly decreasing first-hand production.

Like, it needs to be a swap out.

And unfortunately, that’s not really what we’re seeing so far…

we are seeing more people try out secondhand, but we’re still seeing first-hand production continue to grow.

The biggest fast fashion brands in the world are getting even faster, producing even more, profiting even more.

So the positive impact of decreasing new production — that’s the part that I’m not seeing yet.

And I think that needs to become part of it. I mean that’s the reason for shifting to secondhand, right?

ELIZABETH: Yeah, absolutely, and that’s definitely a big topic that needs to be discussed. And another issue that people will talk about in terms of secondhand is the gentrification of thrift stores.

I know that you’ve talked a lot about this. And you actually wrote a really great article for Atmos that touched on this topic, and it was called Gone Vintage: How to Build a Better Thrifting System. I will link the full article in the show notes, so listeners can read the entire piece.

But for those who haven’t read it yet, in this article, you shed light on the perception that prices in thrift stores are going up, and therefore driving the gentrification of thrift stores in some neighborhoods, because of an increase in demand as thrifting becomes more popular.

But as you shared in this article, there isn’t exactly a shortage of supply with secondhand fashion.

As you just mentioned, the purchasing of new is not declining, so we have no shortage of clothes.

And in fact, countries like the US are exporting and wasting enormous amounts of used clothing.

So could you just dive a little bit deeper into this topic and share your thoughts on this concern with the gentrification of thrift stores?

EMILY: Yeah, so this is one that I get asked about a lot and it’s a really complex issue, and I think with this, what I’m trying to get people to do is unpack the complexity of this issue.

Because I feel like especially online — it’s just the way of online discourse — we get so tied up in trying to say like, this caused this or this is the result of this.

Or people try to get me to answer like, are prices going up? Is this thrift store being gentrified? Yes or no? And it’s such a more complex topic than that.

So bear with me if this is a long answer, but I do really think that it kind of requires this unpacking.

So yeah, like you said, a lot of the discourse around the gentrification of thrift stores kind of relies on this argument of scarcity. That more thrifters coming in, is driving up the price of secondhand goods in the thrift store.

Which then prices out economically disadvantaged people in our communities who rely on thrift shops as their source of affordable clothing.

But anecdotally, while people might be saying that price tags at thrift stores seem to be increasing, or that the thrift stores appear to be gentrifying, most thrift store employees actually say that there’s been kind of a squeeze on profit margins that doesn’t really even track with inflation over the years.

That’s because there’s SO much secondhand clothing.

Like you said, there’s so much used clothing on the market that on average only about 10 to 20% of what makes it to charity shops actually resells in those stores.

And the majority of secondhand clothing that doesn’t sell in US charity shops or charity shops across the Global North is usually exported to the Global South.

I have collaborated with and interviewed Liz Ricketts of the OR Foundation. Their foundation does research in Accra, Ghana, on Kantamanto Market, which is the largest secondhand market in Accra. It may be one of the largest in the world.

To kind of talk about that supply-demand equation, and it really becomes clear if you look at what’s going on in Accra, that there’s no shortage of secondhand clothing.

Otherwise thrift stores in the Global North wouldn’t be selling it on to the Global South.

There’s so much clothing that it’s constantly being cycled up and baled out, and sent somewhere else.

I think that the thing about this is that people have this misconception about the role that charity shops play in our society. And that has been intentionally mis-marketed to people for centuries.

It’s not their fault that they think that charity shops are in our communities to specifically serve folks who are economically disadvantaged.

But the reality is that charity shops identified early on from their early foundation, that clothing is such a fast-moving, abundant consumer good, that people would be readily willing to donate their old clothing for free out of eagerness to make more room in their closet to consume more, newer and trendy stuff.

So then the thrift stores turn around and sell those items for a profit that they use to fund whatever their charitable mission is.

Sometimes that charitable mission is helping economically disadvantaged folks in our community. Sometimes it’s helping an animal shelter. Sometimes it’s helping with job placement. The charitable mission can really vary.

But I think we have to understand that the way — right or wrong, if we agree with this or do not agree with this — the way that charity shops function in our society is to use the clothing as an economic engine to fund their charitable work.

So that’s the first thing is that supply and demand, there’s really no clear evidence that someone buying a T-shirt is creating a shortage for someone else because unfortunately, there is way more than anyone in the world needs to exist.

And then the second thing is just kind of the function of charity shops in our societies.

So when I talk about this, I’m not trying to say that everything is great with the way that the secondhand system works, or these problems don’t exist.

That’s not it at all.

But it seems like the only solution that we’re offering for this problem that we’ve identified, that there are economically disadvantaged folks living in our communities and there’s way too much clothing, is that certain people shouldn’t be thrifting.

And I just think that it seems incomplete to me.

I think the thing that I wish we would talk about, the thing that tires me about these continued articles about thrift store gentrification, is that although it’s coming from a well-meaning place that we want the best for our communities, and we want the clothing to be reused, but… we’re not posing constructive insteads about the issue.

It’s like the whole point boils down to ‘this person should shop here or not shop here.’

And I thought that we were kind of coming to realize as a sustainability and activism and environmental space that it doesn’t all come down to what you buy. Like it doesn’t all come down to your metal straw, or what you buy.

It comes down to your involvement in your community and your action and how you’re working with the others around you to build a better ecosystem.

I don’t think that removing thrifters from that equation actually solves those problems that we’re passionate about.

So in my article, I try to offer some ideas about how an increasing thrifting populace can actually come together with the community to try to think of some cooperative solutions that would improve our secondhand space.

And the suggestions that I offer in my article are by no means exhaustive.

I think this is why I’m like, we need to be getting together in conversation. Folks need to be talking about this: how are we improving the secondhand clothing system?

That’s where it actually gets interesting!

Volunteering, for example. Charity shops, part of the reason why they’re not reselling quite so much is because a lot of the charity shop processes is a manual sorting process. There’s a lot of labor involved with that process.

You know could spending your time in the charity shop actually help less clothing be sent to the landfill?

Could it help the charity shop resell more within your local community?

Could it help them provide better services to your local community?

I’ve heard of amazing programs where thrifters who source from a charity shop or are visiting a charity shop often, they will offer to curate like a designated career closet.

So charity shops often can get sponsorships for things like career closets for folks who need to have affordable work-appropriate clothing.

And so then these thrifters who use the charity shop as the place where the source, they’ll come in and they’ll do that curation and that picking for the charity shop so then they can have their free career closet.

The OR Foundation, who I mentioned is in Accra, Ghana, they’ve identified the same kind of thing in Accra.

A lot of younger people will go Kantamanto Market — the big secondhand market there — and because they have a phone and they know how to use Instagram, they can often resell a piece for more than what the person working in the market could make.

And while that’s a good thing, because it does contribute to what we want to see happen: that clothing not going to a landfill.

It’s also a good thing if those folks could share those skills so that we’re creating more equity among the community and we’re achieving our shared goal of keeping more clothing from landfills.

Ultimately, about 40% of what flows through Kantamanto Market ends up in landfills.

So again, there is no scarcity. There is way more than we need.

So, if they’re tech-savvy and younger, could they help the folks who have had a stall in Kantamanto Market for 30 years work on that online presence, for example?

That’s a partnership that they’re [the OR Foundation] trying to establish there.

You know, other things could be like:

• Could you offer your services as a mender?
• Could you offer workshops that show people in your community how to keep their clothing for longer, so they’re not donating things that are in really bad condition to the charity shop, which is contributing to the charity shop’s decline?

There are so many ways that we can look at this problem of I want to provide mutual aid that helps my community and I want to prevent clothing from going landfill.

There’s so many ways that we can address that problem and it shouldn’t necessarily be boiled down to this person should or shouldn’t shop at a thrift shop.

This is something that I can talk about for days!

But I just think that rather than putting these boxes or trying to establish the system of blame, we all benefit more if the entire secondhand ecosystem — all the folks who participate in secondhand and benefit from it — come together and dig deeper and discuss systemic solutions that work for all parties.

I think that’s how we start to build a better shared secondhand space that addresses all these things that we need it to address.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for diving into all of that. That was very educational and I think perspective-shifting as well.

But it makes sense… just like we can’t create a better first-hand fashion economy just by what we do or don’t buy, it won’t be enough to create a more equitable, just secondhand fashion economy, just by focusing on where or how much secondhand fashion we consume individually.

EMILY: Yeah, that’s exactly it.

I mean, we’ve learned this lesson once around. So you know, we need to put it to practice again as we’re like shifting to secondhand and building up that system.

We need to talk to our charity shops if they’re not prioritizing sustainability in the way that we wish their mission did.

We need to like work together on some of these system-building things. There is so much more than just what is bought.

ELIZABETH: Totally. So you did touch on this before, but do you have any other tips or pieces of advice that you would share with people who want to get involved with secondhand fashion activism?

EMILY: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think just talking to the other folks who are part of your secondhand ecosystem locally, like getting engaged with that local community.

Like I mentioned, I feel like people don’t quite realize how much of the secondhand industry is still done by hand.

All the sorting and the circulating, the curating, even the physical carrying of materials within the global secondhand market is done by hand, and it requires a lot of labor to attempt to recirculate all of this excess clothing.

And so I think people who are passionate about this should consider volunteering, consider programming, just partnering in whatever way you can… to make your community a better place and to do your part in making sure that clothing is recirculated.

ELIZABETH: Absolutely. So something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately in terms of ethics in the secondhand fashion space is the role of bigger companies or corporations in secondhand fashion.

And a recent event that people may have heard about is that the large secondhand fashion retailer ThredUP, who I believe markets themselves as the largest online secondhand fashion retailer, recently went public at a $1.3 billion valuation and is now being traded on the stock market.

And I would love to get your thoughts on what this might mean for the future of secondhand fashion.

EMILY: Yeah, this is a super interesting development for the world of secondhand.

So if you’re not familiar with ThredUP, basically the ThredUP model is you can either sell your stuff or donate your stuff to ThredUP.

So it’s not peer-to-peer like a Poshmark or a Depop, where you list stuff on your page and then I’d sell it directly to Elizabeth.

You’re selling it to ThredUP and then they’re dealing with it. That’s always been their model.

But in recent years, what has been really interesting to see ThredUP do is they’ve started to get into the space of helping firsthand retail brands start their secondhand arm and I think that they’ve realized that that’s the way they can truly scale their work at ThredUP.

I think of ThredUP really as becoming more of a tech company than a resale company in some ways. Their product is actually that platform that helps clothing that passes through ThredUP but then also helps other first-hand brands recirculate their clothing.

So they’ve started partnering with tons [of brands].I believe ThredUP heads up the second-hand operations at Gap, Madewell, Reformation, Walmart, possibly Levi’s.

Yeah, it looks like there are 21 different retail partners that ThredUP currently has.

I think that that’s the direction that they’re headed. I think that that valuation shows that. That they’re planning to expand their tech in that way.

Now, I’ve pointed out this contradiction before.

The OR Foundation, again, that’s doing research in Accra, Ghana, they remind us that while ThredUP — and other Global North resellers like them — get a lot of funding for this mission of recirculating clothing, they’re not really the ones who are doing the most of it.

ThredUP’s 2020 Resale Report says that they’ve recirculated 100 million items total since ThredUP began in 2009. So that’s 11 years.

But, by comparison, Kantamanto recirculates 100 million items — that same amount — in just four months.

So that scale is mind-blowing to think about.

And, when you add on top of it that most of the clothing that ends up in Kantamanto Market is considered ‘low grade’. It’s the stuff from the Global North that couldn’t be resold; the stuff that resale platforms like a ThredUP couldn’t resell, the stuff that charity shops, like a Goodwill, couldn’t resell. And so then it comes to Kantamanto.

Where still… we focus a lot on the 40% that heads to landfill, but it’s an astonishing amount of clothing that is recirculated.

The unfortunate thing is that there’s nowhere else for the unsold to go.

And so, what is unbalanced in that equation is that Kantamanto doesn’t receive those millions, billions of dollars of investments that platforms like ThredUP receive, even though they’re really doing the most in terms of circularity.

As with anything on my platform, it’s the same thing as when I’m talking about the conversation of thrift store gentrification.

I don’t have these conversations to say, that the X platform is bad, or this one group of people or this one company is causing this problem.

It’s really more about understanding the complexity of these topics.

It’s about understanding that we should be asking the question, what could a market like Kantamanto do if it had the kind of investment into circularity that ThredUP sees?

Same thing with thinking about this idea that where I predict ThredUP is heading is into helping first-hand retail brands get into the secondhand space.

I don’t think that that’s bad.

I don’t think it’s bad that firsthand retail brands want to do secondhand.

But I do think that they’re getting into it because it’s an additional stream of profit.

I think they’re getting into it because they recognize that secondhand is the arm of the fashion market that’s growing the fastest. That it’s projected to outpace firsthand clothing.

So these brands are not going to lose out. They’re going to chase that additional stream of profit.

The issue with that is it comes back to what we talked about at the beginning — secondhand is supposed to help us decrease new production.

So if these fashion brands are just adding that as an additional stream of revenue, and not adding it so that they can intentionally and rapidly decrease what they are creating, supplying, and selling new, then it’s missing the point.

But yeah, I mean if you ask me, that’s definitely the direction that it looks like ThredUP is heading and I think it’s inevitable that we will see lots and lots of fashion brands looking for their piece of the secondhand pie in years to come.

ELIZABETH: Definitely.

And I’m just curious, have you seen any models or any ways that we can kind of ensure that as these fashion retailers get into the secondhand market, what ways can we ensure that they’re also decreasing their production of new?

Is there anything? Are there any movements that are working towards that? Have you seen anything about that?

EMILY: Yeah, I mean, it’s so interesting.

I get so tied up about what I think about these initiatives, right? Because, of course, if they offer a secondhand option, I’m gonna pick that, because I want the thing that’s already been created. I don’t want to buy the thing that’s new.

So I’m like, how do I feel about buying from one of their secondhand initiatives?

And it’s complicated. I think people will land on a different side of that all the time.

I mean, I think it’s continuing to apply pressure on the brands.

Saying, I’m a passionate secondhand shopper, and I think it’s great that you’re getting into the secondhand space.

Brands will 100% present their getting into the secondhand space as being a signifier of their morality. They’ll be like, “we are so eco-conscious, we’re getting into the secondhand space.”

And I’m not saying it’s not true — it is eco-conscious.

But I think the thing to flip back at them is… that’s wonderful; what are you doing to decrease your new production?

Because I think that part is clearly missing. From what I have seen, that part is not part of the mission.

I think that it’s just wanting to profit off both: Brands want to continue to produce new, but then they also want to profit off of secondhand.

Especially if you think about money shifting the secondhand, they’re going where the money is going.

But yeah, I mean, could they use it as a strategy for intentional degrowth, which is what we know that the industry needs?

ELIZABETH: Right.

And there may be are some brands, like Eileen Fisher, I know that’s definitely something that they’re genuinely doing. [They’re doing] take-back programs, resale programs, because they do want to find a way to make enough money, keep their employees employed, without this constant increase in production.

So I think that with some brands you can tell what their intentions are and that’s definitely a key point to watch out for.

EMILY: Patagonia is another one. I interviewed Patagonia Worn Wear on my show and you can hear them talk about that. That’s in their ethos that it’s always been about not overproducing.

So it only makes sense that secondhand would be something that they’ve long prioritized, I think we can see through which brands are trying to present themselves in a certain way and which brands are actually trying to make a significant impact.

Because I think it would make a significant impact for a brand to come out and say like we are investing in the shift to secondhand and that’s going to allow us to decrease what we’re producing new and all the raw resources and carbon emissions that come from producing new.

That’s transformative. So it’ll be interesting to see, as more of that happens, what that looks like.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, and I really hope to see that and hope that other companies follow the lead of Patagonia and Eileen Fisher and companies like that who are genuinely involving themselves in these sorts of models to reduce the production of new.

For now, though, going back to what listeners can do right now, for people who do want to shop pre-loved fashion and do so in a conscious way, what are your tips for thoughtfully shopping secondhand fashion?

EMILY: Okay!

It all comes back to don’t buy more than you need.

So start to get real about what you need in your closet and what you like.

Keep a thrift list so you know what you’re looking for.

And, so you don’t get swept up with the excitement that we’ve all experienced of like we walk into a secondhand store and we just find a gem of a piece and even though it’s something that we don’t need, we think “oh, this is too good to pass up!”

That’s just a practice that we continuously have to get better at.

I think a great way for people to break their buying habit is to do a “no-buy.”

So at Remake, which is an ethical fashion advocacy organization, we are about to start this summer our #NoNewClothes pledge.

So it’s a three month pledge about not buying new clothes. You can interpret that how you will. You can interpret that as just no newly produced clothes or you can try to not buy anything for three months.

But taking some sort of like hard and fast step back, quitting fashion and consumption, can really help to reset your mindset.

They say it takes about 90 days to reset a habit. So something like that I think can really help you to reset.

I think also too, it’s important for folks to understand that we should be donating mindfully.

We should think of our clothes as a gift. We should think of our clothes as something that we love, or if we pass it on, it’s because we’re hoping that our friend or our neighbor might love it, too.

We should think of our clothing as being something that someone made by hand because people make all of our clothing by hand.

So just kind of changing our mindset around the things that are in our closets and remembering that they are things to be cherished and loved.

ELIZABETH: Yes, I definitely was buying more secondhand fashion than I needed when I first got into it. I bought clothes just because I was like, oh, that’s a great brand for such an amazing price and then I got it and I was like, this is actually not my style. I won’t wear this.

EMILY: We all do it!

ELIZABETH: Yeah, for sure.

So shifting gears a little bit here, you recently joined the team at the non-profit Remake as their Advocacy Manager.

Could you tell us a little bit about your role there and how you and Remake are engaging people to make fashion a force for good?

EMILY: Yeah, so Remake is a global non-profit that works on kind of three main pillars.

So they have educational work. They will produce documentaries, lectures on fashions issues.

They will do advocacy work, which is campaigning for living wages or gender justice, that kind of systemic change at a policy level, like we’ve talked about.

They also do transparency work. So they rate fashion brands, and they work with fashion brands about how to get better about their sustainability practices throughout their whole supply chain.

Remake is powered by this global ambassador network. So there are all of these awesome ambassadors.

I know you yourself are a Remake Ambassador as well! Folks who love fashion and want it to be better who power this movement.

So I’m honored to join the team as Remakes Advocacy Manager. I will basically be helping that big ambassador network understand the advocacy work and the policy issues.

Remake is, for example, partnering with the Garment Worker Center in Los Angeles to fight for SB62, the Garment Worker Protection Act, which is a policy that would eliminate the piece-rate-pay in California.

So that’s a policy issue that we are fighting for to have changed in the California State Senate.

And I will kind of engage with the ambassador community to make sure that the policy is easy to understand, that people can communicate about it easily, that you can tell your mom, your sister, your cousin about why these issues matter.

So I’ll do that for Remakes campaigns. So SB62, folks might be familiar with the #PayUp campaign, which started at the beginning of the pandemic, when fashion brands started backing out of factories, without paying for orders that were already in production.

And the PayUp coalition came together to unlock $22 billion of owed wages for garment workers and that that work is ongoing.

Then the other one which we mentioned, #NoNewClothes, is kind of campaigning to get folks to understand why we need to decrease consumption and decrease production.

So #NoNewClothes is coming up this summer and I’m really excited about that.

They’re all causes that I really believe in. But like I keep saying, I think that we have so much more work to do on producing less and that’s gonna really be what revolutionizes the fashion industry.

ELIZABETH: Yeah, Remake is really doing so many incredible things.

As you mentioned, I am an ambassador as well and really love being part of this organization.

So I will put the links to everything you mentioned in the show notes so that people can check that all out.

To close out this interview, I have one final question that I ask all guests that come onto the show, and that is what does a better future for fashion look like to you?

EMILY: I would say a world with a lot less stuff.

Being able to be happy with less. With less things, maybe. More abundance, more time with our families, better pay, you know more in some categories of our lives, but less in terms of physical objects.

I hope that we can learn to find joy in reusing the stuff that exists.

I think that that will bring about a better future for fashion and for our planet and all the people living here.

ELIZABETH: And that’s a wrap for this episode! Be sure to take a look at the episode description in your podcast app for the links referenced in this episode, as well as the various links to learn more about today’s guest. For the full transcript of this episode, you can head on over to consciouslifeandstyle.com and navigate to the podcast section of the site.

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For more conscious content, you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit. In this newsletter I share recommendations for reading, listening to, watching and much more. To get on that list, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit and the link to subscribe will also be in the episode description. Thank you for tuning in to the Conscious Style Podcast and sticking around until the very end. I’ll see you again, same time, same place, next week!

ABOUT EMILY:

Emily is a writer, journalist, and podcast creator, with expertise in the vintage and secondhand fashion industry, sustainability, and labor rights activism. She is the producer and host of Pre-Loved Podcast, a weekly interview show exploring the vintage, thrift and secondhand industry: all its stories, and all its angles.

She is also Remake’s Advocacy Manager. Remake is a global nonprofit that aims to make fashion a force for good. As Remake’s Advocacy Manager, Emily helps lead ambassador engagement and community management, specifically around the SB62, #PayHer, and #NoNewClothes campaigns. Her goal is to make policy information and industry topics easy to understand, and to communicate to others, believing that we all have a role to play in making fashion a force for good.

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The post Building a Better Secondhand Fashion System with Emily Stochl appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.