Greenwashing is basically, when a company puts forth a false or exaggerated impression or completely misleading impression about how their products or their practices are environmentally friendly.

We know fast fashion brands are notorious for greenwashing. But today’s episode is a broader take on greenwashing that applies to more beyond fashion.

We’re going to chat about some of the red flags signs of greenwashing, the nuances with certifications, and the challenges of growing a values-based small business with today’s guest: Milos, co-founder of Green Eco Dream.

Links From This Episode:

• Green Eco Dream’s website
• Green Eco Dream’s Laundry Collection
• Article: H&M Removes Conscious Choice Label From Website
• EP57: How to Launch A Slow Fashion Brands with Selina Ho
• EP64: Journalists’ Role In Shifting the Sustainable Fashion Conversation with Jasmin Malik Chua

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey there, and welcome back to the show. As you might know, last week was the season finale on our season four, which was all about slowing down fashion, degrowth, and envisioning a post-growth or post-fast fashion future. 

But as promised, there will be plenty of bonus content or like in-between season content through the end of the year before we pick back up with season five, at the beginning of 2023. 

And in today’s episode, we’re going to be covering one of, if not the biggest, most talked about topic in sustainability and sustainable fashion, which is greenwashing. 

Greenwashing is basically, when a company or a brand puts forth a false impression or exaggerated impression or just flat-out misleading impression about how their products or their practices are environmentally friendly.

So this can either be a company just completely having a facade over being sustainable, or it could be a company doing, you know, a tiny little eco-friendly thing and then marketing and advertising it as if they’re overhauling their whole brand, you know. 

As if they are super, super sustainable when actually they just did this tiny little thing like, use 10% recycled materials and then their advertising this dress is recycled or collection is recycled. And then you’re like wait, but it’s like only 10% recycled content, stuff like that. 

So we know fast fashion brands are notorious for greenwashing. And we’re going to be diving so much more into greenwashing and fashion in the upcoming bonus episodes, and also in the next season. 

But today’s episode is a slightly more broad take at greenwashing that applies to sort of like all companies and products, because we know that we see greenwashing everywhere from food, to home decor, to personal care products, to beauty. You know, we really see it everywhere these days. 

And I think it’s really important to this word is so overused, but I think it’s good to empower everyday people to sort of understand greenwashing, how it works, and get a sort of feel of how to differentiate the greenwashing from perhaps more genuine sustainability efforts. And to be clear, this conversation is ever-evolving. 

Like if you listen to episode 64, with Jasmin, with sourcing journal, she was talking about how the sustainable fashion conversation has evolved. And for instance, how we thought recycled polyester was like the panacea for circularity. And now we bring more nuance and understanding to that conversation. 

So conversations can also shift and our understandings of things might evolve, as we get more information, as we get more data, and as there’s more research. However, this is not saying that we cannot determine greenwashing today we absolutely can.

In fact, I think that everything that we’re kind of determining to be greenwashing now is going to continue to be considered greenwashing. It just there might be additional things that are considered greenwashing, I guess is what I’m trying to say. 

And regulators and watchdogs are finally taking action on some of this greenwashing we see in fashion. So in this episode, you’ll hear me reference the UK consumer watchdog taking some action. And specifically what I was referring to was the Competition and Markets Authority currently investigating ASOS, Boohoo, and Georgia Asda for their sustainability claims over potential greenwashing. 

And also, since recording this episode, H&M has removed their conscious choice indicator from their online stores worldwide. And they admitted that they were doing so partially because of the Netherlands Authority for Consumer and Markets calling H&M out for employing nebulous unsubstantiated terms that could mislead consumers and basically get them to buy things thinking that they’re better for the environment when they might not actually be. So I mean, I think this is such a clear area for watchdogs in all countries to step in. 

Because as consumers, as people become more and more aware of sustainability, people are going to be actively seeking products that they think are sustainable and perhaps giving their money to one brand over another because of marketing and if that marketing is sort of false or exaggerated. You know, that’s where these consumer watchdogs really should be stepping in. 

And I do think we will see more and more action from watchdogs as well as more legislation related to greenwashing. We see some of that already in the works. 

But in the meantime, and even once we have greenwashing legislation on the books, or there’s a lot of action happening, I think it’s really good to just be aware of some of these common greenwashing traps.

So in this conversation, I’m going to be chatting with Milos, the co-founder of Green Eco Dream. And if that name sounds familiar, Green Eco Dream, it’s probably because they were the sponsor of this past season of the Conscious Style Podcast. So they were basically funding us and making sure that we could get these episodes out to you every week, you know, just out of full transparency. 

This podcast, the first three seasons was actually costing me money, and I wasn’t making a single dollar from it. And so finally, in season four, we basically had a sponsor to cover the costs. So I’m still not making money from this podcast. But I basically can cover the costs. And it’s not like an expense. 

And the reason I share that is just because A, I really value transparency around sponsorships and partnerships, and that kind of stuff. 

And also B, I’m starting to talk more and more about the business side of things, as you might have noticed with some episodes, and we’re also going to be talking about running a small business in this episode. And I think that just sharing this kind of information is really helpful for other people. 

I mean, I know that I was always really curious about like the behind the scenes when I was wanting to start a business. And as I was slowly dipping my toes into growing a content business. So that’s, that’s the reality. 

And, yeah, really grateful for Green Eco Dream, and basically making this past season possible. And I’m quite familiar with Green Eco Dream, although they’re a relatively new business, they actually started during the pandemic, which we’ll talk about in this episode. But I’ve purchased things from Green Eco Dream, and I love what they’re doing. 

And I love their spirit behind all of this, and I wanted you to get to know them a little bit more, because I really don’t partner with just any brand, but really like to make sure it’s a, it’s a really, really good fit in terms of like the values and intentions and practices of the business. 

So in this episode, you’re gonna hear Milos, talk about why they started a Green Eco Dream, the challenges of starting a business in the midst of COVID, how him and his co-founder Snow are balancing growing a business while also encouraging people to buy less. That I think that’s a big struggle and with a lot of conscious and sustainably minded businesses. 

And then, of course, we’re talking a lot about greenwashing. For instance, the complications with certifications, how a brand with a certification might still be greenwashing, and how a genuinely sustainably minded, intentional, holistically conscious brand might not have certifications. 

We’re talking about some of the common signs of greenwashing. And how we can figure out if a brand really is making progress, or if they’re just sort of over advertising their very miniscule efforts. 

And then finally, something that was really important that Milos brought up was that just because a product is made from more eco-conscious lower waste materials, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s sustainable, if it’s not an actually useful or necessary product. And I just really, really appreciated this message. 

And it’s also something that a previous guest Selena Ho talked about in episode 57, how you can use the most eco-conscious materials but if it’s a product that nobody’s going to use, then it’s just “sustainable junk”. 

And this is a message that I just hope to sort of like drill down on because I think it’s so important. We’re seeing so many “sustainable products” made from these materials. But it’s like, do we even need that product at all, and perhaps the most sustainable thing would be for that product to not exist. So that was a really interesting point. And I just appreciated a lot of the points that Milos brought into this episode, so I hope that you enjoy it. 

As always, the transcript can be found in the show notes on consciouslifeandstyle.com. And if you would like to check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low-waste products, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/dream. That’s where I get my laundry detergent, dish detergent, Swedish dishcloths, and other sort of everyday low-waste essentials. I also get my skincare products from them, all that good stuff, so that link will also be in the episode description. So you can check it out the next time you need something.

But without further ado, let’s get into this interview. Milos is going to start us off sharing why he and his co-founder Snow decided to found Green Eco Dream.

MILOS  

So, Green Eco Dream was as any other business was created with the necessity and what we found most eco conscious people struggle with being able to find a place they can actually feel confident about what they shop, where they shop, and finding all those in one place.

As far as the story goes, it’s kind of in three little pieces. 

The first part of it would be going back of back to our past and go back to our homes back to Montenegro, in Serbia, where growing up, without actually even knowing, we were living in a very conscious life. From DIYs, from just using the reusables, repurposing, and all that making our stuff. 

The second part, coming here to the US and realizing the magnitude of the consumerism here, and just the convenience of it, where we first got used to it just played along with it for, for some time. 

And then after that, the main part of the story goes to Sunshine state, goes to Naples, where we actually started to be a lot more environmentally aware. That’s where kind of both of us started to be a lot more environmentally aware, and just started to educate ourselves. And getting transition back to our roots and how we lived before, you know, trying to be more environmentally friendly within our everyday lives. 

There wasn’t like any major event or anything to happen that caused us, you know, to move on with Green Eco Dream. It was just the everyday little things. 

I remember. Both of us being annoyed, you know, our trash, we would sometimes, like three times a week, we would take out our trash being full of everything. We’re like, we gotta stop this. And then the best part, you know, Green Eco Dream was, curiously enough started amidst COVID. Yeah, right. 

When COVID shutdown started, we always had both me and Snow, my co founder, for the listeners. We always had an entrepreneurial mindset, and we wanted to do something about it. And when we were doing our research, you know, why not do something we love? We just live in it.

And as I mentioned earlier, our transition had its challenges, you know, at first we didn’t know where to look what to look for all the alternatives that we needed. It was so hard to find them, all the research, you know, at first you want to do everything perfect, and sometimes we would spend hours before we make a purchase. 

And that’s why we kind of decided to fill the gap with Green Eco Dream, both for us and lot more people like us.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, it can be very challenging to navigate, how to make a more thoughtful purchase, when you need something. And you go and do that research, it can be genuinely very difficult to figure out if a product or brand is greenwashing or genuinely, more green. 

So we’ll get to that later in this conversation. But first, I would love to hear a little bit more about what it was like starting a business in the midst of COVID. Because that had to be a challenge.

MILOS  

Absolutely. So two descriptive words, very exciting and very challenging. Exciting on the part that we’re starting this adventure, we’re just doing something for ourselves and potentially, for a lot of people to make an impact.

I remember during the shutdown, we would take these long, long, like couple hours walks, and just talk about it. Talk about ideas, how can we put the business plan and where do we source our products? How do we start anything? That was so exciting. 

And then the challenging part, especially during COVID was that you can get out, you can’t do this, a lot of people, a lot of businesses are shut, so communication is challenging. People are scared, but with, right, of course, a lot of insecurity, what’s going to happen next. And that was a challenging part of it. 

But we had a lot of fun. And we were so excited that we just didn’t care, we just worked our way through, take the time that we had. Because prior to that, we worked a lot, and we didn’t have the luxury of that much time to do the research, you know, and set up the business for a successful start.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, something I hear a lot of entrepreneurs say, and I myself resonate with this is that if they knew how much work was ahead of them, and how difficult it would be, they might not have started, but they were glad that they didn’t know and that they’re maybe we’re a little, I don’t know, naive about how challenging it would be, because then they wouldn’t have taken the plunge. 

And I don’t know, that’s something that I really resonate with. Like starting a business I knew it would not be easy, of course, but there’s all these unexpected challenges that come up.

MILOS  

I couldn’t agree more with you. It’s so true, what you just said. Even from this perspective, if I had to do it again, I probably would, but I would have a very different perspective. 

ELIZABETH  

Yeah absolutely. So what has been the biggest challenge so far in starting and running Green Eco Dream?

MILOS

So really it comes down to the two parts. The first part is obviously me and Snow not having the experience on the business side of it, having to learn everything on the way you know becoming an email marketing experts, search engine optimizing, you know all the background stuff. 

And then of course, more importantly, the consumer side of it. So the consumer side of it is how do you explain to our consumers why certain eco-friendly products cost more compared to the conventional one? 

ELIZABETH

mmm..

MILOS

Where all the, you know how to explain that to somebody that wants to do better, but it’s maybe not able to, in terms of financially and that’s kind of the challenge that we’re struggling with. Along with how do we persuade people to shop and that we’re advising on the other side not to consume as much. 

So that’s kind of the big challenge for us. Just those two points where sharing in a good way how, how an eco-friendly product can benefit you, and how sustainable shopping can help you with your sustainable lifestyle.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, definitely. I think that the second point is something that a lot of small conscious businesses face. This tension between trying to sustain yourself as a business while also advocating for sustainability to your audience, or your customers. 

And just as a business balancing trying to grow as a small business, but also understanding that we have to be consuming less as a whole. 

So how have you been balancing that so far? I know this is a journey. And there’s not just one simple answer, but what has your experience been like with that so far?

MILOS 

So my personal opinion on that is very simple. The very idea of sustainable shopping is actually to consume less, when you look at it, when you buy an eco friendly product, let’s just say, on paper towel, or Swedish dishcloth, that thing is designed to last. 

It’s gonna last you a very long time, versus something that’s disposable paper towels and stuff like that, I’m just giving an example. Those things are designed to last, and with that, you’re going to consume less. That’s how I see it with every product. 

You know using a shampoo bar, using anything from the eco-friendly product offer is going to make you buy less. With that, we always encourage our community to first think about what they really need, before making any decision.

If you need it — and there are always things that we really need — so when you find things like that, we encourage you to shop and only shop then.It’s more of a mindset than anything else, really.

ELIZABETH 

Hmm, yeah, absolutely. And I do feel like it helps that a Green Eco Dream, you are selling sort of necessities you know, I just ordered some dishwasher detergent from you all and you know, Swedish dishcloths and these sort of things that they’re everyday needs for your home, or your personal care or things like that. 

And I feel like that definitely helps with balancing this dilemma between consumption, and overconsumption and sustainability, because you are creating, or you are offering sort of more conscious options to everyday essentials that people are using.

And like you gave the example of paper towels. And that’s something that we stopped buying a while ago. And we just use like towels and Swedish dishcloths and we just put the Swedish dishcloth in the washing machine, and you know, it lasts so long. 

And now when I go to the store, and I see paper towels, I’m like those are so expensive, like to buy a huge package of paper towels. It’s quite expensive. And we just don’t buy those at all anymore.

MILOS 

That’s awesome. Well, we focus on when we’re choosing the products to bring into our store. It’s really that we don’t want to have trivial things in our store that don’t necessarily improve your sustainable life, even though a certain product might be eco-friendly and has all the eco-friendly features. 

But if it’s not something that’s essential to your everyday life, then we might not get it because it’s something that’s not as important.

ELIZABETH 

Right, totally. And do you have any advice for other business owners or aspiring entrepreneurs that might be facing this sort of broader question of how to sustain a business or grow their small business while keeping to their values?

MILOS 

Well, the answer to that is also, in my opinion, very simple. Do pretty much anything and everything for the community you’re trying to serve, in a way. Do everything for them first, and then you should be good. 

If you are guided by the right values, you should be good. So anything you do first customers and environment, of course, but that’s where I put in those values.

If you have those set up for you, where you want to make a better, greener future or however you want to put it. When you put your community first and the way you support it. It’s gonna be the key for any aspiring entrepreneur.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, definitely. Thinking of your audience and your community first and putting their needs and their wants at the center of your business. 

Yeah. So greenwashing. This is something we talked about a little bit at the beginning, but it is a huge topic of worth in sustainability, of course. So how do you at Green Eco Dream vet brands and determine which brands and products you’ll include on your marketplace?

And what could listeners sort of take away from that in discerning greenwashing?

MILOS 

Oh, yeah, definitely the greenwashing has been growing. 

ELIZABETH

Yeah.

MILOS

The more our sustainable market is growing, the more the greenwashing is growing. And that’s why we got to pay close attention to that. 

Well, what we at Green Eco Dream do is we have a standardized process where we vet our brands to try to see if they fit our values and what we’re trying to do. 

There are a couple of things that we look at. We start by looking at materials and ingredients that are being used to make a certain product. With that, there’s obviously a list of products and ingredients that are a red flag for us and they are a no go for us. If they are in any of the products, we are not gonna take it in our shop. 

Then it goes to packaging of those, you know. Plastic is a very, very serious issue for the environment, and it’s a growing issue from day to day basis with our waste culture. So we look at the packaging, we try to stay away from the virgin plastic — it’s almost always a no go. 

We would consider recycled plastic from time to time. Most of our products are plastic free and zero waste where it is an endlessly reusable product or is biodegradable, compostable, and stuff like that. 

Then we really look deep into the brand’s sustainability, transparency, and claims. What are they doing in terms of sustainability? Are their claims easy to find? Are their claims easy to back up? What are they backing those claims with? And if we have a challenge to find those answers for us, then we’re definitely not going to work with a brand. 

What I found is any brand that we work with, we decided to work with you really has it all out there for you to consume all the information you need. It’s out there and went on their website. Maybe it’s a part of their About Us Story or of their Impact or if they have a special page dedicated to sustainability and what they’re doing. 

So it’s usually very available to the consumer to verify those. With that, we also look into, are they supporting the community they’re serving? Are they giving back? Because, in a way, this is what it’s all about: giving back, supporting communities that need it more than others may be and stuff like that, you know. Are you doing some volunteering? Are you a member of, of any nonprofit or stuff like that. 

And then finally, something that’s very important to us, but not a deciding factor is the third-party certificates. The reason why it’s not a determining factor, if the brand doesn’t have it, is because some of those certificates are hard to get, and maybe a young brand, we know from personal experience, might be challenging in acquiring it, especially from a financial standpoint, because they can be expensive. 

So that’s why when a brand doesn’t have any of the certificates, we look at all the things above that I mentioned. And then based on those, we decide if we’re gonna go and partner with a brand or not. So that kind of sums it up when we’re vetting the brands that we want to work with.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that was great. And I appreciate you bringing up that point about certifications, how they can be useful, maybe like an extra, sort of an extra stamp of approval that might help but you don’t make it a requirement. Because I did notice that on Green Eco Dream you mostly, if not exclusively, sell products from smaller brands.

And these brands might not have the budget or the resources like the time and the staff to have all these certifications. And there have been also so many concerns about the validity of some certifications and so it can be really hard to invest that money in a certification and then something comes out six months later that you know, there’s some fraud happening with this certification. 

All of a sudden, people don’t trust that certification anymore and it can just be really a big challenge. There’s a lot of complexities with certifications and so that’s sort of how I go about it personally when I’m looking for a brand that I feel good about supporting the certification is sort of like an extra bonus but I don’t make that like the determining factor, like the sole factor.

I feel like sometimes there are brands that aren’t holistically sustainable, that somehow get the certifications. And there are also brands that are really doing their best making very strong commitments to sustainability, but just haven’t prioritized financially the certifications, and maybe have chosen to invest that money and research of more sustainable materials, on paying their workers more, or whatever. There’s such challenging decisions to make as a small business. And yeah, I think the certifications, it’s a very challenging topic.

MILOS 

I couldn’t agree with you more. I mean, we wear the same shoes as most of the brands that we carry. We are a small business as well. And we have our financial challenges as well. So we really understand that perspective. 

And like I said earlier in the conversation, it’s really what you do about how to help your community and your consumer, your customers. Are you doing the best for them and for the environment? Or are those values really what you stand for? And back it up with actual actions, and not necessarily certificates? 

I found that some of the certificates are not that hard to get. There are ways even though you’re not an entirely sustainable brand, that you can get some of those certificates. So that’s why we don’t make it a priority when we decide to go with a brand or not.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s a great point. Some of the certifications might be quite narrow, and just very specific to potentially just one part of sustainability. And it doesn’t mean that the brand is sustainable in other ways. 

Like, it might be you know, PETA-approved vegan, or they might use one organic material, but like the rest of their operations, and all that stuff are not sustainably minded.

It kind of reminds me of food when you go to the store, and there’ll be a package that’s like, free from 50 artificial ingredients. And then you look at the ingredients list, and they still use high fructose corn syrup, and palm oil, and all these things that are still, you know, not necessarily sustainable or healthy. And yeah, it’s interesting.

MILOS  

Absolutely the sugar coating of it. That’s one of the traps of greenwashing, definitely, you know, try trying to make it look nicer than it is.

ELIZABETH 

Right, right, they will just advertise the one benefit or the toxic, maybe ingredients that they don’t have. And they, of course, won’t mention the bad things that it does have or whatever. So it’s very, very, very challenging for someone who’s trying to be a more conscious consumer. 

And I have a lot of empathy for people who are trying to make smarter purchases for their health, their families, and the planet and people, and they’re just doing their best and it can be really difficult to navigate. 

Which brings me to my next question for you, which is, this idea that it’s really awesome to value progress over perfection when it comes to sustainability. Because there’s so much to consider sustainability is a journey, all that. 

But it can be difficult to differentiate between positive progress and brands just simply not doing enough. And as we were talking about maybe advertising the couple of things that they’re doing when they aren’t doing so many other elements. And they could be doing more, but they’re choosing not to if that makes sense. 

So what are some red flags that you watch out for and that you would recommend shoppers watch out for too, when it comes to: is this brand really trying and doing their best and making progress? Or are they just doing the bare minimum and over-advertising that?

MILOS 

Absolutely. So I definitely, in my experience saw, you know, some of the major brands notice this trend, let me call it just for the purpose of it a trend where the sustainable market is growing. And they’re like, okay, let’s put, like a sustainable collection and just be okay with it.

And you know, it doesn’t work like that. Your whole business is based on something that’s totally opposite to sustainability. And just making a collection doesn’t really do much for you. 

So I definitely encourage the consumers to take a look at that as one of the signs. As well as, I’m gonna go back to what I previously said is just how is the brand backing up their sustainability claims is really comes down to that. And ease of access of the information or anything they say, related to sustainability. What’s backing it up? That’s really the main point of it. And the main red flag.

A lot of brands, I noticed just overuse a few of the frequent terms like all-natural, eco-friendly this, eco-friendly that, and then you go into their website, their mission, their About page, there’s really nothing. Or there is these pretty pictures of the environment or something like that, but nothing really to, to show that they’re actually doing the things they are saying. 

So that’s kind of a red flag, I see. Just being vague, as vague as possible or very superficial. Most of the sustainable brands we work with, they really go in-depth, and they’re proud of what they’re doing in terms of sustainability. 

So they don’t have anything to hide, and they just put it out there. And then if a brand is not doing it, not doing enough, they can put it there. So that’s definitely a flag to look at.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely. Looking for the specifics. Sort of comparing to the food example, you know. I don’t even bother looking at what they advertised in the package, but just go straight to the ingredient list. And, you know, tell me what’s actually in this. 

And I feel like, it’s similar with fashion. A lot of fast fashion brands will say, now that slow fashion and sustainable fashion, of course, is growing in awareness and interest with shoppers are becoming more and more interested in it. 

They’ll say things like timeless collection for your capsule wardrobe. Slow fashion… and they might have the aesthetic of what people think is slow fashion. But then it’s such cheap quality, and it’s made from polyester. And it just, it just totally misses the point. 

So yeah, going beyond the buzzwords and looking at whatever information you can find. Whether that’s the fiber content label, the list of ingredients, list of materials, the sustainability or About page of a company, or sometimes there will be independent rating companies, like Environmental Working Group I know is a really common one with personal care products. So, it’s tough, but I feel like you just the more you get into it, the more you learn.

MILOS

Absolutely. And more you dedicate yourself as a consumer to educating yourself, the easier it’s going to be for you to spot the signs. And to vet the brands that you want to consume.

So definitely education is the way to do it. And we really try to focus through our blog, and through our content overall to kinda try to educate especially the newer ones on the journey. Just to try to educate them about everything to kind of help them cope with greenwashing, among the other challenges in the sustainable living journey.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, absolutely. And I have been excited to see that there are consumer watchdog groups or consumer watchdog agencies that have been really addressing greenwashing. Especially in the UK, they’ve been making more progress on identifying greenwashing and notifying the brands, and potentially finding them in the future.

So that they are watching out for us a little bit more. And I hope that we will see more of that in the US, too. 

But in the meantime, I think it’s really great to have, as you said, education. And definitely always useful to have curated, vetted, sustainable marketplaces that do the heavy lifting for us.

MILOS 

Absolutely. That’s why we’re here for Green Eco Dream. We do the hard work, so our community doesn’t have to. You know, everybody has their lives. A lot of important things, everything going on. Especially these days with COVID, after COVID, a lot more challenges. 

So I understand when somebody doesn’t want to do to spend all the time doing the research when they have, a family to feed and stuff like that. 

Maybe putting a big example out there, but it’s just, I have empathy for anybody on the journey. And just that’s why we do what we do. To you know, make any impact any way we can on the community we’re serving.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. So in addition to vetting brands for sustainability, transparency and responsibility, Green Eco Dream also tries to operate in a conscious way. So could you tell us what some of the ways are that you integrate sustainability into your operations.

MILOS 

Of course. Just vetting the brands is not enough. We are a business ourselves, and we have to do our part in all of it. So we have to be very conscious about what we do. So there were a few things that we focus on in reducing our impact obviously.

Shipping is a very important part of it. We will always had 100%, plastic-free shipping, and always will. Our boxes are recycled, post-consumer recycled content, reusable. Most of the times, a lot of times actually, our boxes might not be pretty, but that’s the reason we repurpose those. So we would always do that before the aesthetic part. 

We tried to repurpose as much of it that we get from the brands that we work with. With that, we use water-activated tapes always to secure the boxes. You know our shipping labels are ink-less. Our stickers are FSC-certified, acid-free, stuff like that. 

We are a Carbon Neutral Certified company, which means that we offset the carbon that we use through shipping, and we offset all of it through our partners. We’re also a member of the 1% For The Planet, through which for now we mostly support a Clean Miami Beach. Shout out to Sophia Ringo and their team they’re doing such an amazing job just keeping the beaches of Miami clean and just doing the right stuff for Miami. 

Miami is a little far for us from Naples but from time to time me and Snow would go and just do the beach cleanups with them. We do a lot of other stuff with Clean Miami Beach’s different promotional stuff to educate our consumers. 

With that, recently we did support an elementary school with some of our donations for Earth Day. That was one of the latest things we kind of did for the community and the younger ones that want to live more sustainably. 

On top of that, we are members of Plastic Pollution Coalition and Sierra Club, two of the major nonprofits that are fighting for the right environmental causes. 

And then we are a certified Green America Business, which kind of validates all that we do on a daily basis just confirms that we are where we say we are in a way. I like to put it that way.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I so appreciate that as a shopper or customer with Green Eco Dream that you have taken such efforts to make sure that the packaging and the shipping is as eco-friendly as possible. And it just feels good to receive a package like that, because I hate when I receive a package, and then there’s all this excess plastic packaging. 

Even though it was like the company that produced it, I like feel this guilt, even though I shouldn’t but I still feel this guilt personally. And it’s just so nice that I can trust that when I order something from Green Eco Dream. I know, I’m not gonna have all this excess packaging and stuff. 

MILOS 

That is really something that we emphasize. You know, if we’re saying what we are, we got to do what we say we are in every aspect of our business.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, totally. And I think that’s so important when the founders of a business are just fully committed to sustainability themselves, you know. It’s not an afterthought, right? It’s just like, ingrained in everything that you do. 

To me is sort of the best way to like, try to combat greenwashing. And of course, we’re not going to like get perfection. Just we’re up against a lot of challenges as I was mentioning before, but I just always try to look for brands and retailers that have sustainability embedded at their very core, like founded with the mission of sustainability, I think it’s just so so important

MILOS  

Great way of putting it. Thank you for that.

ELIZABETH  

Of course. So as we wrap up here, can you tell listeners a bit more about what they can expect to find on Green Eco Dream?

MILOS  

Absolutely. We touched it a little bit. What we offer is everyday essentials our consumers kind of need to get them through everyday living. From home goods, sustainable home goods where we include some laundry products, some kitchen products, cleaning products, then switch into to health and beauty part where anything from personal care, oral care, body washes, creams, skincare, suncare, all of it is included in our offer. Along with some Adventures On The Go, plastic-free items like water bottles, backpacks, and stuff like that. All that you can find on Green Eco Dream.

ELIZABETH 

Amazing. And my last question for you is, do you have any final advice for listeners on their conscious lifestyle journey?

MILOS  

Absolutely. And I’ll use the quote I’ve been reading this book recently by Jordan Peterson. It says compare yourself to who you were yesterday. 

So really is just try to improve yourself every day little by little. Little things are what really makes the impact in the long run. Don’t feel guilt. I know I did when I was first starting. When I was overwhelmed with all of the things that I found out there. 

All the information, misinformation, and everything. Basically, just focus on one thing, improve it and move on to the next one. And that’s the best way of succeeding. And actually the best way of inspiring somebody next to you to do the same. 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you Milos so much for your time today, I will make sure to leave all the links for Green Eco Dream in the episode description and the show notes on our website so that everybody can check out what you all are doing and hopefully support your small business as well.

MILOS  

Thank you so much for having me for having me as a guest, your awesome podcast. And thanks to all the listeners who took the time of their day to listen to what the two of us have to share.

ELIZABETH

Thank you so much for tuning in today, I hope that you learned something and got something out of this conversation with Milos. Again, you can head to consciouslifeandstyle.com/dream to check out Green Eco Dream’s collections, including their clothing care and laundry products. 

Next week, we’ll be launching a mini-series that I’m super stoked about called Conscious Questions. 

So in this series, Stella, who is a contributing writer at Conscious Life and Style, and also has been a guest host on this podcast, and I will be diving into some of the most asked questions in conscious fashion. There are going to be some really juicy questions and topics, so you’re gonna want to hit subscribe or follow on the Conscious Style Podcast, so you do not miss those. 

And the first one is coming next Tuesday, and we’re going to be talking about if we think fast fashion brands can ever be sustainable. And we talked about so much within that to like so many of the layers and just deeper questions that that sort of brings up about sustainability in the fashion industry. So you definitely will not want to miss that. I hope to catch you then. 

And I also hope to connect with you via our newsletter, The Conscious Edit, which goes out every Saturday, and you can subscribe to that at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. This is like the best way to stay in touch with Conscious Life & Style. I share a bunch of articles, podcasts, videos, resources, all that kind of good stuff in these newsletters. It’s like my favorite thing to do every week, my favorite piece of content to put together, and resources to put together for you all. 

The post Tips to Spot and Avoid Greenwashing with Milos of Green Eco Dream appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

The more we dive into Fashion’s perils, and how deep rooted these issues are, the more unlikely this seems.

In this episode, four members of Fashion Act Now are joining us to explain why they believe that we need to dismantle this centralized, monolithic Fashion system and what kinds of clothing systems could take its place.

Links From This Episode:

• Fashion Act Now Website
• Join Fashion Act Now
• The Common Market
• Fixing.Fashion
• The Linen Project
• David Bollier
• Article: Who gets to be a fashion activist?

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

Green Eco Dream, a sustainably-minded marketplace with eco-conscious alternatives for your health, home, beauty, and on-the-go needs.

Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Welcome to the season 4 finale! We’ve been talking a lot about slowing down fashion and this idea of envisioning post-growth fashion futures. Basically, imagining a fashion system that isn’t dependent on ever-growing production volumes and ever-increasing profits for their shareholders. 

A system that isn’t just about enriching billionaires of the world’s biggest fashion brands, while paying everyone else along the supply chain poverty wages. A system that replenishes the earth instead of extracting as much as possible from it, and polluting everything in its wake. 

A system that celebrates culture, creativity, and expression and the beauty of clothing and ways of adorning, not just pushing these trends that are determined by some people at the top. And these visions for fashion future might be what some call a radical change. 

And it is, right? The word radical means “relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something.”

And sadly, a fashion system that actually cares about people and the planet is a pretty fundamental shift to the status quo. 

So there’s an interesting article in Fashionista I recently read called ‘Who Gets To Be A Fashion Activist’ by Megan Doyle. And Megan talked about these sort of two groups of fashion activists. People who advocate for incremental changes from the inside, and those who advocate for more dramatic change from the outside. 

Obviously, in reality, there’s more of a spectrum. But basically, in the article, Megan kind of speaks to why both groups are necessary to create change. Again, it’s really a spectrum. But I definitely fall more towards this group of people from the outside advocating for more dramatic change. That these fast fashion, eco capsule collections, and sustainability ambassadors are just not cutting it for me. 

And I also just think that mainstream fashion media focuses already so much on these incremental changes coming from the big brands. This material shift, this carbon neutrality goal, this minor improvement in worker well-being that isn’t even actually addressing wages. 

And having an independent media platform, I would just way rather spend my time focusing on some of these more exciting and transformative solutions and ideas coming from grassroots organizations, workers, worker activists, small businesses, researchers, writers, and so forth. 

I would love to give voice to these people and groups and ideas, because I think that a broader collective of ideas coming from the ground up is going to inspire a better future than like, people at the top, right? 

Because they’re, frankly, out of touch with what we need for a livable healthy planet for everybody. And they’re definitely out of touch with what the people in the frontlines of fashion production need. 

So my goal with this podcast is to make it a space where we can explore these ideas from all around the world, from people at all different areas of fashion. And one of the grassroots groups in the fashion space that I’m really inspired by is Fashion Act Now. 

And Fashion Act Now is an independent campaign group that evolved out of the climate advocacy group Extinction Rebellion. Fashion Act Now, or FAN, still collaborates with and supports Extinction Rebellion, but they are sort of their own separate entity. 

And in this episode, I’m speaking with four members of FAN: Sara Arnold, Sandra Niessen, Sam Weir, and Cindi Clark. You’ll be hearing much more about what FAN is and what they’re up to. 

But first, I wanted to remind you that the transcript and relevant links will be in the show notes at consciouslifeandstyle.com. And I wanted to remind you to hit subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast listening app. 

This is the season finale but we have a bunch of bonus content coming your way over the next couple of months and then we’ll be back with Season 5 in 2023. It feels wild to say that but we are actually in the last stretch of 2022. 

So you don’t need to remember any of that that I just said, all you have to do is hit subscribe and then you’ll be fed the latest episodes of Conscious Style Podcast. 

Okay, let’s get on to this week’s episode. Sara is going to start us off by sharing what Fashion Act Now is and what the group’s goals are…

SARA  

So I was previously an activist with Extinction Rebellion and this all kind of formed out of that. So we had some quite high profile campaigns, one in which we were challenging the British Fashion Council to cancel Fashion, and really readdress what this system was all about, and address this parade of excess. 

So we were doing that work and we would go to negotiations with British Fashion Council, the various designers, and we were kind of getting dumbfounded looks back at us being like, yes, but you’re asking us to do this emergency response. But what do we actually do? 

We felt kind of unable to give them specifics. Perhaps we still can’t, but we felt like we needed to create a space in which we could really explore what it means to be doing enough in the face of climate and ecological breakdown. So out of that, we created Fashion Act Now.

We felt that we really needed to explore what degrowth means for the fashion industry, but also fashion culture. In doing this exploration, we realized that must come hand in hand with deep decolonization. 

Through looking at that, we then started to question whether Fashion — what we think of as fashion — can still exist when we really grapple with these problems fully, with degrowth and decolonization?

So we started to use this word defashion, because we felt that if we were really going to kind of grapple properly with degrowth and deep decolonization of Fashion — what we think of as Fashion today would no longer exist. And therefore, we needed this process of de-fashioning. 

So we’re a group that we’ve now got about 40 activists worldwide. We’ve got people in New Zealand, Australia, across Europe, across the US, and I’m here in the UK. We also have some activists in Indonesia, and also South Africa. I’ve probably left off some countries, but we’re quite widely spread out. 

And we’re really brought together by what seems a simple ask: for clothing cultures that nurture people and planet. Not that simple in practice!

But also crucially, we stand against Fashion. And when we’re talking about Fashion, this is Fashion that we’ve given a capital F, which is distinct. 

It is different to when we talk about dress or clothing, in general, the adornment of the body that is a human universal, which we are completely not against. In fact, we want all of that culture to thrive. 

But we see this Fashion as this globalized system that is intertwined with our growth-based economic system. I’m sure we’re going to go into more detail about that later, so I won’t do it. 

So there this kind of three parts to the work that we do:

One is looking at how we dismantle Fashion, this kind of big, complex system. 

Then secondly, how we then build the future that we want. We call this seeding and nurturing a post-fashion commons. When we’re talking about commons, we’re really talking about kind of community-led initiatives. I’m sure we’ll go into more detail about that later. So we really want to be heading towards flourishing, resilient communities that are repairing the health of our planet. 

Thirdly, this work is also about looking beyond Fashion or looking how fashion can be a way to embed change into culture as a whole, and the economy as a whole.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, I’m really looking forward to diving deeper into all of that. Thank you for that overview. 

Can you explain a little bit more about defashion? That’s a word that I know Fashion Act Now uses a lot and I’m sure it will be used throughout our conversation.

So can you just dive a little bit deeper because people may be listening to this podcast — we are style lovers, maybe fashion with a lowercase f lovers! And that word might be a little bit jarring or nerve wracking. 

So can you just dive into what you mean by defashion a bit more?

SARA 

Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that that’s kind of nerve wracking, confrontational term. I do think that’s an important aspect to it in the same way that degrowth is quite jarring too. 

Because we think growth is good. And aspects of growth are good. It’s the same for fashion. 

We felt that by saying that, it’s going to make people think about okay, well, what really is Fashion? What are the bits that are good? And what are not? What isn’t good about it? What really is it? 

So what is defashion? As I said, we do believe there is this distinction. We are all for the creativity that we can have with our clothes, and that human need for expression through our clothing. 

We accept and love that there is this human universal of adorning the body to express local customs, cultural identity, and that serves the needs of communities and serves the needs of individuals. 

But we see that this Fashion with a capital F isn’t doing that. It’s not really serving our needs. It’s not really serving our wellbeing. It really has become a system that is about growth, about economic growth to feed people at the top of the pyramid.

This growth is achieved through planned obsolescence, through overproduction, through irresponsible advertising, through cheap labor through the exploitation of not just people, but also our environment and animals. It’s not really benefiting anyone, but for some very few people at the top of this.

I think it’s also really important to note that it has become this big, globalized, monoculture. This monolithic thing that has spread through the world, and in doing so has eroded these other dress systems that used to be flourishing through the world. We would like to see those other dress systems flourishing once again. 

So, yes, we believe there needs to be a defashioning. We need to question and dismantle this ideology of Fashion, and open up space for other systems that serve real needs that make us reconnect with our customs and our traditions.

When we’re saying traditions, I don’t think that needs to mean looking backwards. It can mean creating new traditions and looking forwards.

We really need to explore how we celebrate sufficiency rather than excess. This capital F fashion has really become a system of excess.

ELIZABETH 

Absolutely. Sara, you mentioned how the Fashion system really just works in the favor of a few. 

Sandra, you refer to the places where fashion production is centered, or the frontlines of fashion as sacrifice zones in your work. So can you explain what sacrifice zones are and why they exist in the fashion industry?

SANDRA 

Sara was mentioning that Fashion Act Now is interested in clothing systems that nurture people and the planet. That’s directly the inverse of what’s happening now. 

We’ve got clothing systems, we’ve got an economic system that’s based on extractivism and exploitation, and sacrifice zones are what results from that approach to production. 

I would like to expand this whole notion of sacrifice zones, beyond supply chains. Beyond just the realm of Fashion. We use it in Fashion Act Now, in a much broader way. 

The word itself sacrifice zones, suggests physical spaces. Indeed, the original notion of sacrifice zones is about regions of the world that can be “sacrificed” — done away with, destroyed, for the sake of capitalist economic growth. 

When you think about that on a small scale, then you say, we really want to build a mine here, we really want to build an oil field. The nature here, or the region, we can regard as something that can be dispensed with, for the sake of that “greater good” — the economic system. 

I think a good example of that is the oil fields in the tar sands in Alberta. They’re on Cree land. The Cree people were forced to move from their traditional heritage lands, in order for this oil to be dug out of the earth. 

That’s not just the oil industry. Fashion operates as well, indirectly, as well as directly, on sacrifice zones. 

Because we know there’s increasing use of synthetic fiber, and also huge amounts of transportation in the production of our clothing. Also, the production systems are hugely consumptive of energy. As a result of that, Fashion is allowed to grow because there are sacrifice zones out there in the world. 

But at Fashion Act Now, we go beyond this notion of physical space. We say, well, in fact, there are sacrifice zones that are more specific to Fashion. 

Think of what Sara was mentioning earlier about the exploitation of animals. We think of either down, leather or skins, we sacrifice our fellow creatures for the sake of fashion. 

But we can also think even more broadly. Currently, there’s a lot of research — and I think you’ll see that on social media — people are examining quite deeply what kinds of materials are causing harm to the earth? 

And we — not just Fashion Act now, but other degrowthers — are saying we have to go beyond this materials focus and take a look at how Fashion’s growth in general leads to more and more sacrifice zones.

So growth is the engine of sacrifice zones. And what is that growth? Why is fashion growing like this? We have more than enough clothing for everybody on Earth.

So what’s happening is something between our ears. Something cognitively, something in our hearts, something that is pushing us to expand the fashion system, even though it’s sufficient. Even though it’s too big, right? Much, much too big right now. 

Then I think we have to think about another kind of fashion sacrifice zones. Sara was also mentioning advertising. And that advertising, I call it mind rot. It pushes us to consume. It pushes us to be unhappy with the way we look. It pushes us to buy the latest fashion. It pushes growth. 

So we’ve got both here a trigger of expansion in advertising. We’ve also got the sacrifice zone of our own minds, and culture, because it is that mind rot, that advertising. 

Sara also mentioned that fashion undermines Indigenous clothing, and this is a very specific sacrifice zone for fashion. 

Fashion is expanding. We’ve called it the globalization of fashion. But it’s expanding in the world, and as a result of that, it’s undercutting, altering, and rendering invalid, Indigenous systems of dress. That means that Indigenous culture and Indigenous systems of dress have become something that Fashion sacrifices. 

I think it’s really important to keep that in mind. Because fashion students and fashion aficionados tend to focus on fashion perse, as design. What do I like? How do I look? We forget that in that expansion, we’re actually destroying other cultures. 

So Fashion likes to think of itself as promoting some kind of culture. But in fact, it’s also destroying culture, and that’s a very significant facet of Fashion sacrifice. 

Fashion is a colonial construct. It emerged in the colonial era. It was a way of distinguishing those with ‘fashion’ from those without ‘fashion’. Clothes with culture from those who are considered to be without culture and history. 

In that sense, the sacrifices that we see occurring in the world, have generally been considered to be, or at least have generally been happening in the areas of people not considered having culture and history. People of color, impoverished people if we look for example in the States, but in other parts of the world, it’s the Southern nations. 

But now the whole area of — we know there’s a terrible storm happening right now, today, in the southern part of the States. Canada was just struck last week terribly. The Fashion zones that we’re creating through production, through our capitalist system of production, are now much larger than just areas where there are people that we can consider expendable. 

It’s now the whole world being sacrificed for the sake of expansion and growth. We’re sacrificing ourselves essentially. 

In that sense, we can also take a look at our sacrifice zones as having a temporal quality. Because we’re sacrificing our own futures. We’re sacrificing the futures of our children. 

So let’s go back to that whole issue of growth, not just materials. Materials are really important to have them somehow in line with the capacities of the Earth, what we’re using. 

But we also have to take a look at expansion and ensure that we’re getting the opposite of that as quickly as possible. Because every form of expansion right now is a sacrifice of ourselves, our future, and every being on Earth.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. Thank you for that breakdown. That was very powerful. 

We see so much talk about sustainability in the Fashion industry these days as the conversation has been growing, but we’re really just seeing incremental changes.

Maybe a fast fashion brand launching a so-called conscious or circular or green collection. But as you write on your website, as you all wrote on your Fashion Act Now website, you are a “collective of activists demanding and enabling a radical defashion future.”

So I was hoping to dive a little bit deeper into that. Sandra, can you speak to why these incremental efforts are not enough, and why Fashion Act Now is working towards such a different future?

SANDRA 

I think I’ve touched on why it’s not enough already. 

ELIZABETH 

Right.

SANDRA

Because of that focus on materials. I really hope that people will become aware that we actually have to get rid of the coloniality inscribed in Fashion. And that will help us reduce the number of sacrifice zones, and also build respect for other systems. 

So when we talk about our radical approach, I think Sara described that perfectly with her discussion of what is defashion. That’s radical. We’re talking about dismantling the system. We’re not talking about tweaking it, and incrementally changing what kinds of fibers are in your jacket or your pants.

We’re talking about actually dismantling the system because it’s the system. We have to start looking at the systemic problems here. That’s radical. We want to grab it by the root. That’s what radical means. 

We talk about this a lot in Fashion Act Now. What is the direction that Fashion should be going in? And we’re actually saying, we don’t want the fashion industry to be going anywhere. We want to actually have alternatives to the fashion industry. 

So that’s why we’ve utilized the term pluriverse a lot. The pluriverse suggests variety, dynamism. Something different from that monolithic system that was, at one point, a small system in the West and has become globalized. 

Actually globalization is a euphemism. It is domination of what used to be a small system, now throughout the whole world.

We’re saying we want the inverse to occur. We want a pluriverse again, to be able to thrive. 

A pluriverse means all kinds of dress systems that maybe are not now incorporated in the notion of Fashion. In fact, are not because they’re a sacrifice zone of fashion, and they’re ignored and denied by Fashion. They’re erased.

So what we’re arguing for in Fashion Act Now is really a paradigmatic shift. And that’s what’s so radical about it. We’re wanting to go to the root of what’s between the ears. That paradigmatic shift is a different way of looking and being in the world. It leads to a different way of being in the world. 

I can’t stress enough the importance of this paradigmatic shift. Again, that single-minded focus that I see in social media, on materials change, is just a tiny slice of the pie. It’s just the tip of the iceberg of the kind of change we need. 

We need degrowth. As Kate Fletcher and Matilda Tam said in 2019 — and that was three years ago — we needed then a 75 to 95% shrinkage of Fashion. That’s really considerable. Terribly considerable

That kind of degrowth is not easy to achieve, or we would have achieved it. We haven’t achieved degrowth at all yet. And what’s holding us back? I think it’s that the paradigmatic shift hasn’t yet been made. 

We could be banning fashion advertising because it encourages consumption, modernity notions. And modernity notions are planned obsolescence. Fashion is in essence, planned obsolescence. 

We should be supporting Indigenous systems, instead of undermining them, encouraging them. Not devaluing them as crafts but looking at them as legitimate other kinds of clothing systems.

And obviously, we have to stop exploiting extracting, and we have to stop relying on sacrifice zones. So those are the real shifts that are needed. And that’s why we call it radical change that Fashion Act Now is asking for.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, and I really appreciate how you brought in this idea of globalization really being about domination. I think we can even see it with terminology used in the fashion industry with things like the word “empire” is often used when somebody’s building a really big brand, or maybe they have several brands under their umbrella.  And we say, media empire or fashion empire. 

And that just even that terminology, it’s very clear what the sort of goal is. So I think that is something interesting to pay attention to in Fashion, for sure. 

So, Cindi, I would love to ask you, what types of solutions specifically do you think that we need to drive this systemic change? Sandra talked about this a bit, but I was hoping you could dive a little bit deeper into what Fashion Act Now’s vision is for a post-Fashion future? What would that look like?

CINDI 

You know, when I was thinking about this, I realized what a big question this is.

And adding on to what Sandra already said about the solutions. It’s really about this paradigm change. That unless that happens, all the solutions will not take hold, or they won’t make sense. 

In order for us to get to this post-Fashion world, it seems to me that we have to go through this deep process of not just changing the way we think about the fashion system, or even the larger economic systems. We need to go deep into that and transform how we are in the world, and how we relate to the fashion world, to our clothing, and to our economic systems. 

That is really, really hard to do. Because it involves a lot of inner change on what’s between your ears, like Sandra said. But also a lot of outer work in the world demanding and pushing for these changes to happen on the scale that they really need to happen. 

So what we talk about in FAN are these three processes of degrowth. And I like this idea of empowerment. I think about this a lot. Sandra talks about valuing the Indigenous clothing cultures, and empowering them, giving them the value that they truly, truly deserve. 

Also, I come from an activist background. I don’t have a background in fashion. And when I became aware of actually how destructive the fashion industry is, and always has been and brought this up to…   

I’m part of Extinction Rebellion in New York. And it was almost seen as yes, you can target the fashion industry. You ladies go over there and do that, while we’re going to do the tougher stuff, we’re going to take on the fossil fuel industry. 

But to empower people who are doing simple things like a sewing circle. That’s really radical. The idea that I’m going to mend my clothes instead of buying into the capitalist system that controls how we do everything. 

Which leads us to this idea of Commoning, which we’ve done a big study of in FAN, working with David Bollier and his ideas about Commoning. And how do we create a clothing Commons, which Sam will talk more about in a little while. 

But it’s bringing it down to local. Instead of this big globalization, we’re gonna bring it to local. Local communities, making clothes for their community, in their community, and how amazing that would be to build those kinds of communities. 

So there’s that inner work of making people aware of the huge impacts of the fashion industry and our basic relationship to our clothing — and what that could mean, what that could look like, and how that really could be a personal expression.

Also, we need to look at how do we pressure the industry, and the governments to bring about these changes? 

We need activists out in the street, causing disruption, to bring that awareness to people. And we all know that the industry’s main goal is profit. So they’re not going to just agree to downsize or degrow on their own, they’re going to have to be forced into doing that. 

So we need to demand transparency from them. We need to demand accountability from them, for the loss and damage that they have already incurred. And we need to push them towards degrowth. And that can really only be done through government regulation. So we need to push. 

The fashion industry is one of the least regulated industries in the world. I know in the United States, it’s very, there are a couple of bills now that are trying to be pushed through to regulate the industry. But until now, they have not looked at it. It’s another one of those things, oh, fashion, it’s just a trivial thing. It’s not a big player in everything. But it really is. 

So with FAN, part of what we’re doing is bringing awareness to people through education, through having these kinds of conversations with people, and making them aware of and thinking about what their relationship is to their clothes. 

What their relationship is to shopping, and that consumer driven need that people feel like… That’s inner work. That’s like, well why am I compelled to go shopping and buy this stuff? And that’s something that we each need to answer for ourselves. 

So through education, and awareness, and people making those personal changes, pushing for outer change, and also providing alternatives and options through one thing that we’re doing the Common Market. 

So it’s going to take a lot of work to move to that vision of a defashion world. But what’s necessary, keeping in mind the climate crisis and the severity of that. It’s what has to happen.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s really interesting to think about the cycles of growth in fashion. They’re obviously unsustainable on a human level and ecological level. But also on an economic level!

Like we see how these fast fashion brands, they grow really fast, they get really big really fast. And then they go out of business. Like what we’re seeing with Missguided, and now Boohoo is having issues as well. We saw Forever21 go bankrupt. We’re just going to continue to see that happen as they race to the bottom. 

There’s a marketing thought leader Seth Godin, who has a quote that I really like. And it’s something along the lines of “the problem with the race to the bottom is that you might just win.” I feel like that’s kind of what we’re seeing. 

Because if your business model is based on just having the cheapest and the most, well, someone can always kind of beat you, as we were seeing with SHEIN. You know, SHEIN is sort of beating everybody, and then they’re gonna have a boom and bust cycle for sure eventually. 

So it’s really interesting. It’s honestly not even sustainable on an economic level. So it just doesn’t even make sense. 

But Cindi, I really appreciated what you said about building alternatives. And that leads into my next question quite well, that I had for Sam. 

Sam, can you share some examples of these alternative textile or clothing systems that are possible outside of Big Fashion? 

SAM 

Yes, let’s talk about things that make sense now!

Now we get to the fun part! There’s so many to discuss, we can never fit it in just one podcast. And we just don’t usually hear them or see them because they get drowned out by these big advertising budgets of capital F Fashion, as we’ve been discussing. 

But we’ve been tracking a lot of new projects. One area that we’ve been looking at are projects that pop up online that use open source software, which means it’s completely free to whoever has access to the internet and a computer. It’s completely open for all to enjoy. 

An example of that is a project called Fixing Fashion. So they have an online platform with multiple videos and also like full courses, educational courses, on how to mend your clothing. That’s one area. But also like really creative and fun projects about upcycling. 

From my generation, speaking from my perspective, a lot of us don’t even know how to sew! We don’t even know the first start of it. So to have something that can educate us and really get us closer to our clothing in that more like mental spiritual way — and also provide a practical solution to my denim has a hole in it — it’s really nice. And it’s available for everyone. So that’s one project that we’ve been looking at. 

Another kind of category is more local-based projects that are very physical. An example of that is the Linen Project. So they’re based in the Netherlands and they investigate and work towards reactivating the economic viability of small-scale, local flax cultivation and linen production, which is really cool as well. 

So you get to actually grow your own linen right there and be a part of this process physically and see it. So much of our clothing is made outside of our eyesight. We don’t even know how clothing is made, really. So to bring it back to their original task and like creative force, I think is really exciting. So that’s another example. 

But also something as simple, or “simple”, as Cindi mentioned —  I don’t think it’s simple anymore; I think it’s actually quite revolutionary these days — is your Sunday night knitting circle in your town. That’s an alternative to big capital F Fashion and it’s always been here. 

All these things have always been here. We just have to like weed out all these bad fast fashion brands and advertising to find it. So yeah, there’s been so many I can go on forever on this. But there’s a lot of creativity out there when you stop looking at clothing through a consumption-driven lens. On the outskirts, we’re having a lot of fun. We recommend you come join us over here.

ELIZABETH 

Yes, and also I would add to that the rise of stylists like yourself, Sam, that are helping people shop their closets. 

SAM 

Yes, I’m back. 

ELIZABETH

Yes. And yeah, for listeners, we have an entire episode on that with Sam that you can go back to to learn more and get some tips on how to shop your closet a bit more. 

And then Sandra, do you have anything else to add to this question about alternative textile and clothing systems?

SANDRA 

Yes, I do. And I have to say that listening to Sam talk about Sunday nights sitting around knitting or patching our socks or whatever we’re doing, I was smiling away. Because that feels like home to me.

I’m an anthropologist, and I’ve spent 40 years going back and forth to North Sumatra. And I just spent the whole day researching, or at least going through some of my notes on a head cloth that I’ve been researching in North Sumatra. And it’s exciting. Sitting around with the village, the community, the family, working on an Indigenous piece of clothing. 

I’m in love with it. I’m in love with this particular head cloth that I’m working with, because I think, well, what’s not to love? It’s exactly what we’re looking for as fashion reformers. 

It’s local, it’s what Sam was describing about the Linen Project. It’s got a brilliance of technique that hasn’t been lost completely yet. Fashion systems are undermining it, but anyway… 

It’s appropriate to the climate. It promotes local knowledge. There’s no chemical additives. It’s not disposable. It’s passed on. It’s treasured, it’s loved. So there’s no planned obsolescence. 

And I think, hey, this occurred to me years ago, all these students and researchers looking for this sustainable fashion system and then thinking, well, this under our noses. We’re recreating it now, we’re trying to, it’s taking a lot of effort, but it’s out there in the world, and it always has been. 

And, alas, we’re destroying it through our capitalist activities. We know, for instance, that agriculturalists, who are looking for alternative ways that are more sustainable, for working the land, are very often going to Indigenous systems and learning age-old ways of living in harmony with the land. 

I hope that Fashion people will do that with Indigenous clothing systems, because there’s an awful lot out there to learn about. And it’s available. 

I think maybe it takes seeing it, respecting it, honoring it, because it’s always been there. So why can’t we see it? And why aren’t we learning from it? 

Yeah, so we have more to learn from it. Let’s hope that we’ll learn from what’s left instead of continuing to increasingly rapidly undermine it through Fashion expansion.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. And Fashion Act Now is currently working on a really exciting project to bring together these alternative systems and localized solutions to addressing fashion’s ecological and human impact, and impact on all living things. 

Sam, can you tell us about the Common Market?

SAM 

I would love to! So at FAN, we’ve done a lot of talking, debating, writing, imagining, which are all really important parts of this process to creating change. And we’ve also criticized the current system a lot as you’ve heard in the past 30 minutes of us talking.

But we also believe equally and perhaps more importantly, is this need to repair the ills of the current system and develop just and functional alternatives. That’s when the Common Market was born. We need to do something and build something. 

So the Common Market is an online marketplace for community-led clothing projects. So we say internally, essentially, it’s like a destination for clothing cultures uncorrupted by profit and capitalism, which is beautiful. 

But more importantly, they’re defined by purpose, meaning, and values. So we really want to give fashion lovers all of the people listening to this podcast right now easy access to this beautiful world of the fashion commons, where everything is creative and fun, and we can actually enjoy this stuff not be stuck under a really aggressive system, as we’ve been discussing. 

Because like I mentioned earlier, they exist. They’ve been existing. And we just want to give them the platform that they deserve. 

So we’ll have both local projects. So you can type in your zip code on a map, and you can find that Sunday night knitting circle in your area that maybe you didn’t know about before. And you can go join, which is fantastic. 

We’ll also have online projects that you can join in something like Fixing Fashion, all across the world. So those are going to be on the platform. 

But really, our goal is joining together this network of Clothing Commons, so we can move away from excess and towards sufficicency. We can move towards regenerative practices, and this thriving diversity of cultures. We really hope that the Common Market can help facilitate a federation of local community projects that really stand in solidarity with one another.

We want to build our team up against Big Fashion. And that’s what this is really about — it’s bringing us all together in one place. It’s about celebrating these projects and creating a space where everyone listening to this call can celebrate with us. That’s what the Common Market is all about.

ELIZABETH

Hey listeners, Elizabeth from the future here! You may be wondering what is this “commons” that the Fashion Act Now team is talking about? Maybe that was just me, but I felt like I wasn’t completely confident I knew what they were referring to when they said Commons, so I asked them to clarify.

Here’s Sara with an explainer of what the Commons really is.

SARA

I’ve been wondering how to explain the Commons in a really simple way. Because I feel like there’s so much I want to say about it. 

I feel that when we talk about our economy, we tend to talk about three things: the role of citizens, the role of the State, and the role of the market, and we forget that there is actually a fourth player in our economy, which is the commons. 

This is when citizens come together, and they see their resources not as resources to exploit, but as a common wealth between those people. And they create their own rules, or customs or traditions that might help to manage those resources. 

So this could be an area of land, but it could also be a knowledge that we hold between us as a community in terms of a sewing circle. It’s a community coming together and being like, we’ve got knowledge, somebody knows how to sew a button, somebody knows a particular type of stitching, and together we can learn. 

The Commons is super important, because actually, when we can come together as citizens through participation in direct democratic ways of organizing, we create systems that make sense for those communities. 

You could see Indigenous communities as Commons in a lot of ways. I think it’s no coincidence then that Indigenous communities make up 5% of our global population, but are protecting 85% of our remaining biodiversity. That’s because these systems work. 

So I hope that gives a bit of an explanation. Not sure if anyone wants to add anything? We could do a whole podcast on the commons.

SAM 

I would add to look up David Bollier and read his stuff. That is a perfect entry point to the Commons. 

SANDRA

And I would like to add that in our current system, what drives it is that money moves upwards. So you’ve got production of clothing as an excuse, actually, to get money to flow upwards. It makes the rich richer. And in a commons, you actually get distribution, that the proceeds stay within the community. 

So the community works with its resources, and the money doesn’t flow upward. It stays within the community. And that’s what makes it healthy. That’s what means that’s not extractive. It’s regenerative. It’s sustaining, it’s nurturing. 

And I just have to throw this in. We know that Patagonia is wanting to use its profits now, for projects related to sustainability and so on, and that’s absolutely laudable.

But what I prefer to see is a structural change, where it’s not a company that’s getting those kinds of profits in the billions. But in fact, leaving the money, leaving the benefits of all kinds within the community. Then you don’t have to worry about redistribution. It’s already redistributed from the get-go.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah I am with you that if you’re, you know, it’s great when companies give back or distribute profits, but how — exactly as you said — how did they accumulate so much profit in the first place? 

Was there somewhere along the way — during production in the case of a fashion brand — that they could have, ensure that more of that money, was for example, going to the workers. 

So yeah, it’s really challenging, but I love that Fashion Act Now is sort of helping us envision this future with the Common Market. Sam, what is the call to action for listeners with the Common Market?

SAM 

Yeah, so there’s two ways you can get involved, or you could do both of them, we welcome either option. So one way is just as a clothing wearer, lover of all things beautiful, join our waitlist, and we will tell you when we have our projects come out. 

You can explore them, you can get involved with them, it’s just gonna be really exciting. So join our waitlist. That’s the first call to action. 

The other one if you or whoever’s listening has a project that you’re currently working on, maybe you started it, or you’re a part of it, reach out to us. We would love to have a discussion with you and see if it makes sense to partner on the Common Market. 

We do have a 10 point protocol that every project must filter through to just keep the space safe and aligned. But we would love to hear any ideas you guys are doing and starting, please join us. 

So if you do have a project, you can go and write to us on our website. It’s thecommon.market. I’m sure you’ll have it in the show notes. But check it out there. We have so much coming. So just stay tuned, essentially. 

You can explore it but also interact with it. And I think that’s the cool part of how we set it up. It’s not just something to look at. It’s something to get involved with. Stay tuned for when that can happen.

ELIZABETH 

Very cool. Yes, that link will be in the show notes. And also I recommend subscribing to FAN’s monthly newsletter. I love receiving that and the articles you suggest, the events that you have linked in there to attend. Really, really cool resource. 

So Cindi, can you tell us where people can learn more and connect with Fashion Act Now?

CINDI 

Yes. Go to the website, it’s fashionactnow.org and please check it out. You can join, you can become a member, you can learn about various events that Fashion Act Now is either sponsoring or participating in. 

We have a book club meeting once a month, where we dive into a book or a writer whose work is relevant to what we’re doing with Fashion Act Now. Like I mentioned before David Bollier on Commoning. We’ve read him. 

We’ve read Robin Wall Kimmerer’s Braiding Sweetgrass, just about her whole notions of Indigenous relationships with the land with each other. And that idea of reciprocity and living in this world in a healthy way. 

You can also, if you go to the website, there are videos on there. You can watch a video of Uli, who Sandra has worked with in Indonesia, talk about her work. There are other videos there that you can see. You can also join us to help shape this whole new post-Fashion world that we want to move towards. 

So your voices, your experience, your knowledge is valued. It’s a big world, and we need people working on this.

ELIZABETH 

Well, thank you all so so much for this past hour. This has been informative and inspiring. And I really hope that listeners will check out everything that FAN has to offer. 

Before we close out, I do have one final question that I asked every guest that comes into the show, and I would love for all of you to answer. That is: what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

SANDRA 

I kind of feel that the shin bone is connected to the knee bone. There’s all these changes that we’re talking about that are holistic, and they’re all related to one another. I was going to say something about no more sacrifice zones. Make sure if we don’t have any more sacrifice zones, everything will change. 

The same thing goes with Indigenous self determination. That’s what I like to see. And if we have that, there’ll be no more sacrifice zones. There’d be no more profits going to the first world and so on. 

Every single piece of the puzzle would radically alter every other piece. I was also thinking, if we have a pluriverse of clothing, that means no more Fashion industry. 

But in the end, I think what I’ll do after saying all of that is after listening to Sam talk about the Common market, I think I’ve changed my mind. And I’ll say now that what I’d really like for the fashion future is for the Common Market to eclipse capital F Fashion.

SARA 

So, for me, this is really about clothing culture that is not about egos and power, but it’s about community. I feel as we face climate and ecological breakdown, we need fashion to be a tool that builds resilient communities. 

Fashion that shows respect for all individuals, and that means humans and non-humans.

SAM 

I don’t know how much more to add, because I think it’s all quite connected. And you kind of know our answer throughout this whole conversation. But I just want to make one note about creativity and joy and bring back that back to this fashion world. 

Originally, when I was quite young, I was always dreaming of being a fashion editor and being in the magazines, seeing all these things, and then I finally got there at that point in my career, and realized it’s not at all what I dreamed about. 

It was completely dominated by advertising and selling product, and it really ruined it for me. It ruined my relationship with clothing for quite some time. But after stepping outside of that, and joining a group like FAN, I realized that there’s so much love and joy and creativity still in clothing for me, and for so many others. I just had to open my eyes a bit more and step outside of it. 

I think that’s what I really want all of us to experience — this new world where you can still have fun with this stuff. You can still express your identity and explore different things. Just doing it in a way that’s safe for all. That’s really powerful to me. 

So that’s what we want to really do with the Common Market is to show that there’s so much fun over here. It’s not a restriction. It’s actually a celebration of clothing.

CINDI

I think for me, it’s very simple. I would like a future for fashion for us to feel good about what we’re wearing in that we can wear whatever we’re wearing with integrity, knowing that it has not caused harm to anyone else or any other creature or to the earth. 

So that we can feel good about a human being dressed and walking around on this planet.

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for this episode — and this season. 

Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you haven’t caught up with the other episodes of the season, definitely scroll back in your podcast feed. 

All the episodes were centered around these themes of slowing down and envisioning a post-growth future for fashion that isn’t centered around just producing as many plastic clothes and trendy styles as fast as possible. 

As I mentioned in the intro, there’s going to be still more episodes through the rest of the year. They’re just like not attached to a season. And we’ll be back next year with season five. 

In the meantime, if you’re enjoying this podcast, it would be so much if you took a moment to rate, review and/or share this podcast with someone else who you think might like it. 

And then some other ways to stay in touch with us. You can follow @consciousstyle on Instagram. And you can always DM me if you have a question or you have a topic that you want to see addressed on this show. 

There’s also a weekly newsletter. And this newsletter is free. I’ve gotten questions on that. So yes, it is free. It’s called the Conscious Edit and I share articles, documentaries, brands, campaigns to support, and all that kind of good stuff. That sign up is at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. And the link is also in the episode description if you don’t remember that link. 

So thank you again for tuning in to this episode — and supporting the show!

About Fashion Act Now

Fashion Act Now is a group of activists demanding and enabling a radical defashion future.

Fashion Act Now urges an immediate crisis response to dismantle the dominant globalised Fashion system. It calls that response defashion, the role that Fashion must play in degrowth. Defashion is a transition to post-fashion clothing systems that are regenerative, local, fair, nurturing and sufficient for the needs of communities.  

The post Defashioning and Creating a Pluriverse of Clothing Systems with Fashion Act Now appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Stella Hertantyo is back in the host seat to explore with Mousumi Sarangi, Fair Wear Foundation’s Country Manager in India and the Regional Coordinator of Gender. Fair Wear Foundation is a nonprofit organization and multi stakeholder initiative, connecting factories, workers, trade unions, NGOs, brands, and other fashion industry influencers.

There’s a lot to unpack in this episode! Let’s get into it…

Links From This Episode:

• Fair Wear Foundation website
• The Industry We Want website
• EP60: Living Wages for Garment Makers with Anne Bienias from Clean Clothes Campaign
• EP12: From the Frontlines: Fighting for Garment Worker Rights in Bangladesh with Nazma Akter

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

Green Eco Dream, a sustainably-minded marketplace with eco-conscious alternatives for your health, home, beauty, and on-the-go needs.

Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview:

STELLA

Hello, and welcome back to this week’s episode of the Conscious Style Podcast. 

If my voice is new to you, my name is Stella Hertantyo. I’m based in Cape Town, South Africa. And I’m a guest host on the show, as well as a contributing writer at Conscious Life and Style and Conscious Fashion Collective.

It is no secret that we are living in the time of an extreme climate crisis. And we also know that the fashion industry is not innocent when it comes to this. It’s really difficult to pinpoint the fashion industry’s exact carbon footprint due to lack of reputable data. But it is estimated that the industry is responsible for between 2 to 8% of global carbon emissions. 

And, fashion is a fossil fuel reliant industry, with over two thirds of materials used in textiles being synthetic, which means they are directly derived from fossil fuels, and specifically derived from crude oil. 

But we cannot talk about fashion’s environmental harms without also addressing fashion social harms, because to be honest, they’re entirely inseparable. 

For example, communities in the Global South, which include garment production hubs, who have contributed the least to global warming, have also been the first to feel the deadly effects of climate change, and will continue to be the hardest hit. 

So while we know we need to embrace degrowth and urgently transition to a slow and sustainable fashion industry to address these extreme environmental harms and the social impacts that come with them, we also cannot ignore that, as it stands, the fashion industry is the source of employment for millions of people around the world, and a vital economic pillar for many countries, communities and families. 

Of course, these jobs are extremely precarious, dangerous, and the pay is non livable. And if you want to learn more about this, we discussed it in depth in Episode 60, with Anna Bienias from the Clean Clothes Campaign. 

But the fact still remains that the fashion industry employs millions of people. And so with this in mind, the question becomes, how do we advocate and act for a transition to a slow, sustainable, climate friendly fashion future without leaving workers and communities behind and securing sustainable livelihoods? 

While this is what is known as a just transition, and it’s based on the idea that inclusion and equity should be at the core of our focus, as we transition to a more sustainable world, in fashion and beyond. 

And the short answer to this very complex question is that we have to redistribute wealth and power. And don’t worry, I’m not just going to leave you with the short answer. We are going to be deep diving into this topic during today’s conversation. 

In today’s episode, we are exploring exactly what a just transition would mean for the fashion industry and for the lives of garment workers. To explore and unpack this, I am joined by Mousumi Sarangi from Fair Wear Foundation. 

Mousumi is the Country Manager in India and the Regional Coordinator of Gender at Fair Wear Foundation. And Fair Wear Foundation is a multi stakeholder initiative advancing common workers rights to safe, dignified and properly paid employment. 

Leading the Gender Equality and Inclusion program in Asia and Program Management in India, Mousumi works with various local stakeholders on creating spaces for social dialogue at the factory level. We’ll chat more about social dialogue later in the episode as a really essential tool for welcoming garment worker voices into the conversations around just transition.

In today’s episode Mousumi unpacked what a just transition means in the fashion industry. And in doing so she covers so many incredibly important topics, including:

• What a just transition is and what it means for the fashion industry, including essentially what it will take to get there. 

• How we can practically bring workers into this conversation as active participants so that we can ensure a just transition and balanced degrowth what the opportunities are for green jobs in fashion’s future,

• How we can prepare garment workers for these jobs so that they are so that they are included in a meaningful way. 

• And how we can all play a part in shifting these power imbalances in the fashion industry and advocating for a worker-led just transition. 

This topic is truly so nuanced and complex and Mousumi really helped me to understand that a lot better. And I’m really hoping that this episode does the same for you. 

So without further ado, let’s get into today’s conversation. Here,Mousumi is starting us off by sharing a bit about her background and how she came to work with Fair Wear Foundation.

MOUSUMI  

Very nice to be part of this podcast and the conversation with you. Very happy to be here. As you know, my name is Mousumi Sarangi. And I am based out of New Delhi, India. And I’ve been working with Fair Wear Foundation since 2017.

But my journey with the development space started in 2005 when I first started working on the issue of child labor, and education for all in the urban slums of Delhi. I worked there for three years and that was also my first interface with understanding power, patriarchy, and gender discrimination. 

That was my view into how the world is than the world probably I thought I lived in. After that, I had a beautiful, inspiring, challenging journey with a Dutch organization, ICCO Cooperation for 10 years, I worked in their programs focusing on inclusion within the church, and looking at sexual reproductive rights of women in conflict areas. 

That was, again, a preview into a world that seemed distant, but yet so near a world where you had injecting drug users, you had women who were forced into sex work to keep the plate of food in front of the children, we had women who were facing discrimination in the home, violence in the home from the partners. 

Also violence when it comes to the workspace, their workspace of selling vegetables on the street, by the hawkers, by mean police persons, by men in power. And that further widened my understanding of the complexities in which we operate, complexities of what is just what is justice? And how does gender discrimination perpetrate and make achieving these so difficult. 

Coming to Fair War, this is very accidental. It wasn’t a pre-thought out journey in my professional career, but very accidental. A phone call with a friend that was already working with Fair Wear, who shared a bit about what Fair Wear was, what they are doing. And at that time they were looking out for an additional human resource for the country team. 

That’s how I applied and came into this unknown world at that time, for me. The supply chain and the fragmented garment sector that it is. It has been years of learning, I would say with Fair Wear. Currently I work as the Country Manager for India and the Regional Coordinator for gender. 

But the vastness and complexities make it learning like for each of us, I would say, every day. When you have to connect the macro economic policies to what it does to a woman’s life in Cambodia, in Bangladesh, and how do those two interplay is challenging. But also inspiring of how we can connect them and make the lives better of the workers in the production country’s mean. So yeah, that’s in brief my professional journey so far.

STELLA 

I love how your work seems to really connect like these very big, broad systemic issues with people that are experiencing lived experiences that link to them. And perhaps those connections actually help to understand the everyday lives of people much better and especially in the garment space there is like you said, as well lot of connections between gender equality and inclusion to talk about which your background must help you a lot with. 

And I think I wanted to chat a bit more about Fair Wear Foundation’s theory of change. And I know they have a shared responsibility approach. What does this really mean? And how do they use us to approach change in the fashion industry?

MOUSUMI  

I’ll start with an example. So as Fair Wear, there are four pieces of core work that we do, one is the brand performance checks for a member brands, audits for their suppliers, capacity building for their suppliers on issues of social dialogue, violence and harassment, labor rights, and complaints handling. So these are the core work of Fair Wear that drive the huge expanse of work that we do today. 

Now, when we receive an audit report, and see that there is excessive overtime in a factory, and there has been no premium wage paid for the excessive overtime that workers are doing. The initial response would be the factory is not producing clothes in an ethical manner. When you deep dive, you would see it’s not that simple or linear of a conclusion.

As Fair Wear, we verify that we see that the brand has not given enough lead time to produce the clothes in a manner that would not require excessive overtime, right? They have probably given a lead time of 20 days, which is not sufficient to do it in a very, you know, sustainable manner. 

So either they would do excessive overtime, or subcontract a part of their work without the clear legal requirements. Again, we would also then see probably the pricing of the product is so low, that it barely leaves a margin to pay beyond minimum wages.

If we want to change the situation for the worker, we would need multiple actions. Action at the brand level, action at the supplier level, action also at the worker collective level, because the singular worker cannot change the situation. We need a collective for the workers in terms of unions, or other representation. Unions are the best way to represent workers. 

So you will need multiple actions at all levels. Also governments play a role. Because if their policymaking regime is not conducive, if the policy regime is not in favor of worker rights, the benchmark will be so low that in the legal framework, you cannot push the brand or supplier to raise it higher or to raise it to a fair level. You need that regulatory mechanism. That’s also fair. 

This is the simplified explanation of that shared responsibility. 

When it comes to Fair Wear, we envision a global garment industry that contributes to this equal and just society by respecting human rights in all of work. 

But the ecosystem in which we work, which is the global garment industry is very fragmented, and also complex. It involves many actors across the globe, which have various levels of power and influence. 

So the action or a decision of a small group of people in Europe can have an enormous and potentially crippling effect on a woman or a family in Bangladesh, India, Cambodia, where garments are produced. 

Now to reach this goal of respecting human rights in the world of work, each link of the supply chain must bear its proportionate weight, and take up its role to make this change. Workers must take responsibility, governments must take responsibility, brands must take responsibility, suppliers must take responsibility. 

Change must happen at all levels. And as Fair Wear, we continuously stress the need for workers to be able to exercise their right to freedom of association, and engage in social dialogue, if we are to achieve this change and shared responsibility.

STELLA 

I love that approach because I think in order to create systemic change, we will need everybody. Everybody’s expertise, everybody’s different levels and circles of influence. And especially when it comes to the fashion industry where It’s so spread across the world, there are so many different actors. So many intricacies and complexities will really need change at every level. 

And I agree that that is how justice will come about. And on the topic of justice, I wanted to discuss a bit more about that transition to get there. And we have heard the term just transition used quite a lot in the environmental and climate justice space. 

And I was wondering a bit about how a just transition applies to the fashion industry. So could you just share with us a bit about what a just transition is and how this applies to fashion?

MOUSUMI  

Very interesting question. So if we look at where this terminology came from, it originated in the 1970s. And it was the product of efforts of the US trade unionist, Tony Messaggi, to secure the support of environmental studies for the oil, chemical and atomic Workers Union, to tackle the health and safety issues at the Shell refineries. 

If you contextualize it to now, it refers to, in my opinion, fair and inclusive processes, that prioritizes the social needs of workers, communities, customers and citizens. To simply putting it, it means that we don’t leave anyone behind. It’s an inclusive transition, a transition that looks at providing decent work, social inclusion, equity for all, so leaving no one behind.

If you look at the global fashion industry, here comes the dichotomy. Just transition has a lens of equity, and inclusive growth, whereas the garment supply chain thrives on power imbalance. You know, that’s where it thrives on. Let me try to explain this imbalance a bit.

There is both vertical power relations in the value chain and horizontal power relations, in the production countries, that is the civic space in which worker voices can be heard, and freedom of association can be exercised. 

Vertically, brands exercise power over factories via their purchasing practices, business models.  Factories, in their turn, limit workers power and collective voice. Government also to keep the ecosystem and keep the business coming restrict this freedom of association and civic space. 

So it is now happening at multiple levels. Even at trade unions that drive worker voices, it’s largely male dominated, resulting in power imbalance between women workers and men who represent or manage them. So ultimately, in decision making in the garment sector, misses out this key input from women. And this is a sector, which has 80% women. 80% women, but mostly in lower paid positions. 

So power imbalance is a very fundamental problem. That unless we tried to re-address this, looking at relationships between different actors, and how do we address the root causes, so that there is freedom of — for that we need freedom of association. 

To understand these barriers, and to have the agency to ask for this change. Because without that, and I really stress again, that without worker collective voice, workers driving change, the power imbalance will not go so easily. 

The power shift also will not go so easily. So worker voices are very critical for achieving just transition in the garment sector in its truest form, not just from an environmental point of view. But in it’s truest –

STELLA  

I completely agree. And I think that stressing the point that a just transition is about addressing power imbalances is really essential when we look at these kinds of topics. And especially because the textile and garment industry does employ millions of people across the world, that work is very precarious and extremely underpaid.

So if we’re going to be thinking about how to transition to something different, something more sustainable, and more just, we also have to really really grapple with how we include those millions of workers in that new narrative or new fashion system. 

And you’ve touched on this quite a lot in the previous question. I mentioned in the previous question that the just transition term, for me, I’ve heard it mostly in the climate justice space. And it often has quite an environmental focus. And I was wondering, if you wanted to expand a bit on why we need to focus on labor, and the effects of the just transition on those millions of workers as well.

MOUSUMI  

When we look at sustainable development, we use the term, it’s not about a choice of either or, of whether we want worker rights or whether we want climate adaptation. They don’t exist in isolation. 

There is an interconnectedness between the environment, social, and commercial pillar of any industry. Each has its impact on the other, and it cannot function sustainably without any of them. Coming back to your question. 

Climate change is a global issue. It’s come to the table a lot many times. But it’s also an issue that disproportionately affects the most vulnerable people. And from an apparel and footwear supply chain perspective, the majority of this workforce falls into this vulnerable category.

So addressing climate mitigation and adaptation will require the full embrace of “nothing about us without us.” So workers who often earn below minimum wage struggle to feed families, live in financially precarious situations, must have a voice in every decision that will impact their ability to earn a decent living. 

In the short term, and ensure that these decisions are sustainable in the long term, worker voice and participation is key. And it’s interconnected to this whole discourse on climate. Because they contribute to it and they are also affected by it.

To give you an example, when we look at these discussions on the human rights platforms, how can we forget climate? If you’re looking at, say purchasing practices of brands, if their source sourcing decisions are not correct, it will affect both the climate and the worker.

So it’s not either or like I said.

You know, we have to look at this interconnected. There should be no question of why labor? It is integral. So there is no, I think there’s no discussion around why. It should be.

And I would really call upon policymakers and industry, that any frame of action that we plan, whether it’s degrowth, just transition, any of it — it needs to be based on the United Nations guiding principles on business and human rights. 

That should be your fundamental, as well as the ILO Convention 8796, that looks at worker voices. The guiding framework calls upon accountability of the government and the state to protect, respect, and provide access to remedy. And the conventions provide the legitimate right for workers to call for action towards these state actors and non-state actors.

STELLA  

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I think that a just transition can be beneficial to garment workers, but it is about how we approach it, as you were saying. 

And you’re also were explaining how it’s essential that we bring worker voices into this conversation so that they’re the driver of change, instead of just recipients of what other people think needs to change. 

And to expand on that a little bit more. I was wondering if you could just share about practically how do we bring workers into these conversations as active participants so that they don’t get left behind and that the just transition is worker led?

MOUSUMI  

It’s a very key question. And also a fundamental question of how do we bring in? We have to look at each country’s contexts and how we operate them. 

Because some countries have that civic space where we’re voices can be heard. Some have very restrictive spaces, where the right to unionize, collectively organize is not even allowed. 

Right here, as Fair Wear, and I want to respond to this question as Fair Wear, that brands and factories have a very critical role in advancing worker rights, particularly those of women workers. Because of power imbalances which I previously described, factories can structurally improve once brands do, with that increased buying and engagement and implementation of the human rights due diligence. 

The prioritizing gender equity, their increasing access to remedy, I think we put on the center of the table. 

As consumer countries, as brands coming from the European market, we have that power to drive some of these conversations, irrespective of the circumstances. So one way is brands taking up that accountability, especially in the light of the human rights due diligences, which is so strong in Germany, the one coming up in Europe, that speaks about having social dialogue. 

And social dialogue can only function and one of the key factors for social dialogue to try is when brands come in to stay, and pay, provides stability of orders. That it creates stability for workers. 

If the worker is moving from one factory to another, from one geography to another, the worker will also not have enough leverage or the bandwidth to join unions, the local unions at that. 

So it’s very important that the brands take that accountability in advancing worker rights. Involve them in their processes, involve worker voices in their risk assessment, involve worker voices in their scoping.

When they come to audit factories, as brands, and this I’m speaking generally for the ecosystem, look at how women workers are represented in the committees. Do they have a voice? Look at if there is equal opportunities for men and women in the factories in which they source for.

And if it is not there, I’m not saying don’t buy from that factory. Buy from the factory and support the factory make these positive changes.

Because the sector is fragmented, it’s not about if you will get a better factory, most will be similar. We would have to try improvements in what we get. 

STELLA 

I think that’s a really great point about social dialogue, and also just really listening to people that are affected by these issues, and taking note of how they affect them. 

And I really hope that any brand listening is willing to take that on, and address those kinds of inequities in the supply chain. I think fast fashion has a long way to go for that. But I’m hoping that this blueprint for change is really going to become so widespread that they don’t have a choice but to implement it and take it on. 

I think another topic that often comes up in these conversations of just transition is around green jobs and people really questioning what green jobs look like in fashions future, especially for garment workers. 

I was wondering, from your perspective, and how can we prepare garment workers for these kinds of jobs? And what opportunities are there for green jobs in fashion’s future?

MOUSUMI 

That’s a very complex question that you put in, you know, and I don’t have a clear cut answer for it. I can share my thoughts around it. So numbers resonate well.

So, if I look at India alone, the textile manufacturing is a market worth $100 billion. It’s also one of the largest employers after agriculture in my country, providing jobs to over 45 million people directly and 100 million people in adjacent factories. And if I expand this conversation to other countries of the Global South, you can guess at the immense footprint that the industry has. 

And most of the workers continue in the operate an informal economy with very little social protection, and inadequate remediation. And like I said before, 80% of this workforce is women, who suffer worse working conditions. 

So it has the potential, but how do we make this potential equitable for workers? And there is hope; there is opportunity. 

If I look at just transition, which has its roots in trade unions, and incorporates a strong commitment to dialogue and to rights in the workplace. Just transition also finds a mention in the 2015 Paris Agreement, which is one of the cornerstone international agreements on climate change. And about, I think 197 countries have signed that agreement. 

So, if I look at data, again, if we implement the Paris Agreement, which also includes just transition, the concept of leaving no one behind, could create a net gain of 80 million jobs by 2030.

So the opportunities are immense. What we can do to make it or prepare workers for it  I would say we have to first prepare the regulatory frameworks. Frameworks that look at businesses from a more responsible and sustainable lens. Governments having policies, which are inclusive of workers, say, for example, human rights due diligence directive established in Europe, the modern slavery act in the UK, Duty of Vigilence in France.

These guidelines constitute an obligation to prevent human rights violations, and environmental abuses — both within the country, in their company, and along their supply chain. So subcontractors, outsourced work, all of it. 

If we prepare the framework, which is inclusive, it will have opportunities for workers to still be part of the economy. They will not be run out of the economy. 

When we say greener jobs, we don’t say less jobs. We mean different kinds of jobs, more sustainable jobs. We mean equal pay. The fear of saying green jobs as something different, no. Green Jobs mean you make your working conditions better. It doesn’t mean you take the workforce out of the factory, or out of jobs. 

If we want to be in a sustainable manner, we will also have to look at it from the lens of sustainability, and not from the lens of fear that would mean that there’s no job. There’s enough evidence to show that their jobs are not going anywhere.

It might be different in how we operate. And we will also be beneficial for workers, they will not have to face hazardous working conditions, they would not contribute to the global carbon footprint. They would earn differently, you know. 

So that’s where I come from, when I look at preparation for the green jobs. 

First focus on the regulation, and then look at how we include the vulnerable voices in the ground level operation, because they know best. We think they do not know, but they have the agency and the solution to many of the problems which we think that it needs outside intervention. We just need to hear their voices. We just need to be cognizant of the power of their solutions.

STELLA 

Right. That’s really fascinating, and I love that you brought in that mention of the fear based narrative, because I think that is where a lot of people are sitting with at the moment. This fear that a just transition or not to just transition but one that focuses mainly on green jobs is going to really decrease the number of jobs that are available in a world where we do want people to be employed and earning sustainable livelihoods. 

And you really shifted the focus in the way that you answered that question on, what do we need to be focusing on instead? Let’s focus rather on how those workers experienced those jobs? Are they sustainable? Are they ethical? Are they just? And I love that you kind of just drove away those fears with with your answer. So thank you for that. 

While we’re on the topic of power and redistributing power, and resources more equitably, perhaps you could just share a bit about how Fair Wear Foundation shifts those power imbalances? And then also how beyond that, just how brands, policymakers and even us as citizens, consumers can really play a part in shifting those power imbalances and advocating for worker led just transitions?

MOUSUMI 

For Fair Wear, this has been one of the areas of work for quite some time because we do realize that unless we work on shifting and sharing of power, the fragmentation and the vulnerability will continue. 

And sometimes when you look at the power imbalance in the value chain, maybe we’re not talking to the right people. We’re not negotiating with the right people. Now, where does power lie? The power in the supply chain lies primarily with the brand. But the accountability does not lie with the brand. It lies beneath setup of production countries. 

So are we negotiating also with the right actors? If our trade union is negotiating with a supplier, which is already weak, and the supplier wouldn’t have the power to make any changes in wages, in better workplaces, so as Fair Wear, we try to influence our member brands, business associations, to work towards an ecosystem that re-addresses this power imbalance, and promotes sustainable industry and freedom of association. 

To give you an example, one piece of our work, and this is just one of the many and this doesn’t operate in isolation, to put a caveat first on that. So we have something called the Fair Price Application. This is a tool that facilitates fact-based costing and shared responsibility between the brand and supplier to make sure that prices sufficiently cover the actual labor, especially increase in wages. 

This is one example of how we are trying to shift that power. How? Using the application, the supplier can negotiate or have an effective sourcing dialogue with the brand. How using that application, trade unions, the collective voice, can pressure brands that you cannot lower the price below this. 

Because it’s fact based costing. It’s not a cost thing that’s based on assumptions. And wages are best negotiated by workers. When people ask what is a fair wage? Or what is the living wage? I think for me, for us, it’s the negotiated wage between the worker collective and the management. That is a fair wage, as a starting point. 

That’s where the Fair Wear starts from and a tool like this helps facilitate these dialogues, and move these dialogues to accountability. Because I think as an industry, we’ve had quite some time dedicated to dialogue, and we keep a lot of time on dialogues and conversations. It’s time we shift to accountability. Tie these dialogues to accountability and the Fair Price Application is one such example. 

And also through your podcast, invite the audience, to go visit the website of the Industry We Want, an initiative that Fair Wear is part of and driving that looks like this whole interconnectedness between environments, social and commercial aspects, and how do you ship the power balance? 

I will not go deep into it but I really encourage you to check out the website of The Industry We Want and gain some insights of how this power imbalance is being attempted to change this imbalance by Fair Wear and others that are a part of this discourse

STELLA 

Amazing We’ll definitely link to that in the show notes. 

So we ask this question to every guest that comes on the podcast. And I wanted to ask what does a better future for fashion look like to you?

MOUSUMI 

Like I mentioned in the beginning, that decisions in the Global North affect the life of garment workers, especially women workers in production countries — countries that are heavily dependent on this export income. 

So in my vision, in our vision as part of Fair Wear, we see the women worker in Cambodia, Bangladesh, India, work in shop floors where they feel free to speak out, unionize and bargain for better working conditions. Which means they exercise their right to freedom of association, and have access to safe, dignified and properly paid employment. 

And of course, we cannot do it alone. And I call upon consumers who can play the role of active citizens in this journey. Because when you ask, the brands can’t deny. If you ask for sustainable clothing, if you monitor brands so that they produce sustainably, you shout out to brands that are unsustainable, the world will hear. And the brands will definitely hear because you are the business. 

So play your role, actively responsibly and sustainably.

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for this episode. If you enjoyed this conversation, please rate, review, subscribe, and share this show. You can find us on Instagram @consciousstyle.

For all of the relevant links, and the transcript of this episode, check out the show notes linked in the episode description. 

And if you want more sustainable fashion content, subscribe to our free weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit, at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. Subscribers also get access to an exclusive 10 page list of sustainable fashion educational resources as a little welcome gift.

So thank you so much for tuning in today. Next Tuesday is going to be our season finale episode. I’ll be chatting with the team from Fashion Act Now on decentralizing Big Fashion and creating a pluriverse of clothing and textile systems. It’s going to be a very educational and inspiration episode. I’ve already recorded it and I know you’re going to get a lot out of it!

In the meantime, another similar episode to this one that you might like is episode 12 with Nazma Akter of the Awaj Foundation, which is an incredible garment worker advocacy organization based in Bangladesh. 

Alright, that’s all we have for you today. I’ll be back in your headphones next Tuesday or I’ll be in your inbox on Saturday if you’re a subscriber. Bye for now!

About Mousumi:

Mousumi Sarangi is Country Manager India and Regional Coordinator Gender at Fair Wear Foundation, a multi-stakeholder initiative advancing garment workers’ rights to safe, dignified and properly paid employment. Leading the Gender Equality and Inclusion programme in Asia and programme management in India, she works with various local stakeholders on creating spaces for social dialogue at the factory level.

Mousumi joined Fair Wear in 2017, bringing over 12 years of experience from working at Indian and international NGOs, such as the International Cocoa Organisation, in children’s rights and gender and inclusion programs. Throughout this time, she worked with survivors of gender-based violence, communities facing religious discrimination and children survivors of trafficking and forced labour. Confronted with the impact of global power imbalances across supply chains, Mousumi decided to dedicate her professional skills to advancing systemic change.

The post Will Slowing Down Fashion Hurt Garment Workers?  appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Links From This Episode:

• Sourcing Journal
• Jasmin’s article on recycled polyester: “Cancer Alley”: A Cautionary Tale for Fashion’s Polyester Love Affair
• Jasmin’s article on H&M removing their “conscious choice” labels
• Jasmin’s articles on fast fashion greenwashing: H&M greenwash warning from the Norwegian Consumer Authority, Britain’s competition watchdog’s scrutiny of Asos and Boohoo, and Shein’s first Corporate Social Responsibility Report
• Jasmin’s article on the consequences of fast fashion’s waste and the exploitative buying practices of brands

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

Green Eco Dream, a sustainably-minded marketplace with eco-conscious alternatives for your health, home, beauty, and on-the-go needs.

Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

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Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey there and welcome or welcome back to the podcast. Today I’m chatting with Jasmin Malik Chua, the Sourcing and Labor Editor at Sourcing Journal about greenwashing and sustainability in fashion from the vantage point of a journalist.

I’ve been reading Jasmin’s work for a while so I’m super excited that I got to talk with her for this interview. 

You’re going to hear Jasmin talk about how the conversations of sustainability in fashion have evolved in the past 13 years that she’s been writing about eco-fashion, what role journalists have played and can play in moving the conversation forward in the industry, which topics she thinks are not being addressed enough in media when it comes to sustainability and ethics in fashion, and where she sees the most exciting progress in the industry happening.

Jasmin is also sharing some career advice for any who might be an aspiring sustainable fashion journalists and some advice on pitching journalists like herself, if you own a brand or are doing any, sort of, PR in your work. 

I think that this advice also is useful for anyone who is a content creator, not just, maybe, a journalist, but also creating content for a podcast or a social media platform, and so on.

There’s really something for everyone in this episode so I hope that you’ll enjoy it! 

Let me know what you think of this episode. You can find me and this podcast @consciousstyle on Instagram. And, yeah, if you like it, make sure to hit subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes, rate, review, share — all that good stuff!

And you can also find the transcript for this episode as well as the relevant links in the show notes those are over on our site, consciouslifeandstyle.com. And also the show notes will be linked in the episode description on your podcast listening app.

So without further ado, let’s get into this week’s episode. Jasmin is going to start us off with a bit about her background and what led to her interest in sustainable fashion.

JASMIN  

I’m the sourcing and labor editor at Sourcing Journal we’re a B2B publication about the footwear and clothing industry. And I mostly write about retail, through the lens of sustainability and human rights. 

Getting into fashion was actually a very convoluted route. 

My college degree is actually in animal biology, and then my master’s degree was in biomedical journalism. So I meant to get into science journalism, and write about conservation issues, health issues, and things like that. And along the way, I started working for a website called Treehugger. It one of the very first environmental blogs on the internet. It was later purchased by Discovery.

When I was pregnant with my child, I was very emotionally tied, because of all the hormones to all the stories that I was writing about, you know, rainforest loss, and animals going extinct every day. And I wanted to write something a little bit more cheerful. So the team said, you know, why don’t you just write about this fashion show that’s coming up and take a break?

So I started doing that, that was around the time that you know, the concept of eco-fashion was first coming up. And the idea of you know, using organic cotton, hemp silks and things like that, was still a very brand new idea at the time. And so I just started going to fashion shows for companies like Eden, which was founded by Bono. That was one of the first major luxury brands to really invest in the idea of sustainability at that time. And it just, it just went on there.

And of course, fashion turned out not to be a celebratory, cheerful industry, after all, the more I learned, the more horrifying it turned out to be. But you know, once you step on that you can’t not look away after a certain point. And it just became my beat.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that is super interesting that they had you go into fashion because they thought it would be this light, bright thing, and then you unravel all the layers and the realities of what goes behind the scenes in the fashion industry. So that is super, super interesting. 

And I would love to talk a little bit about how you got to the position that you got to because a lot of our audience is really interested in building a career in the conscious fashion space. And I would say that many people would consider what you’re doing today as a dream job, as a sustainable fashion journalist. 

So of course, you shared a little bit about your journey. But can you share a little bit more in terms of the technicalities of how you became the Sourcing and Labor Editor at Sourcing Journal? Like if you have any career-related tips for listeners?

JASMIN 

Oh, so what happened was while I was at Treehugger, I left the full-time position at Treehugger, I started doing it part-time when my daughter was born. 

And then when she was a year old, In Habitat, which was another eco blog at the time that was more focused on architecture decided to spin off a version of its site to cover fashion. And so Jill Fehrenbacher, the Editor-In-Chief rang me up and said, you know, do you want to head the site, and the site was called Ecoterre.

And I think we were the first if not one of the first websites to solely devote ourselves to eco fashion news and trends and so on. And so you Ecoterre lasted until 2017, I believe.

And then after that, the site folded, because of, you know, troubles with advertising and so on, I don’t need to bore you with all that stuff. 

So then I started freelancing. And I still wrote a lot about sustainable fashion and everything as well but I also wrote about other stuff. And then last — I started freelancing for for Sourcing Journal, at the same time, you know, writing about sustainability, and labor rights as well. 

And then about nearly two years ago, they asked me to come on board full time, you know, just because they wanted to build up their team a little bit more. And so that was when I went back into the full time job world, I guess.

ELIZABETH  

So is that something that happens often, like starting with freelance and then kind of coming on board to a media publication as full-time. Is that often how it works, you would say?

JASMIN 

I guess different people have different journeys. You know, media isn’t the most stable of industries. A lot of publications come and go. 

And then finding the right fit can take some time but, you know freelancing can help, you know because you can develop relationships with certain publications, and you can see if they mesh better in terms of what you’re covering and what they’re looking for. 

And that was definitely the case with Sourcing Journal, you know, we worked so well together that we decided to just formalize our relationship and just double down on doing that. 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah that makes sense. I know from like my experiences freelancing, which was more from a marketing area, you know, social media marketing, affiliate marketing, and that kind of stuff, I learned a lot about what I actually enjoyed, and what sorts of relationships, like working relationships were working versus maybe not so much. And I learned a lot in terms of building then my own business. 

So I think that freelancing can help a lot on your journey towards a career in conscious fashion or in other spaces sometimes.

JASMIN

Definitely. Yeah. 

ELIZABETH

So you mentioned that you kind of started writing about eco fashion, when the industry was just sort of sprouting. So can you tell us a bit about how conversations around sustainability in fashion have shifted during your career in journalism thus far?

JASMIN 

It definitely started really taking off around 2009. So you know it’s been a while. And I remember what was really frustrating in the beginning was that no one really understood what the idea of more sustainable fashion was. There was a lot of associations with being a hippie. Every article about sustainable fashion mention wearing dresses made out of hemp sacks. 

Which was really strange. I know, I had someone, one person asked me like, why should we care about organic cotton, we’re not going to eat the cotton. So there was a lot of fundamental misunderstanding about what it was in terms of impacts for the environment, and we weren’t even talking about workers even at the time.

It was only in 2013, when the Rana Plaza collapse happened in Bangladesh that workers’ rights really surged to the forefront. Before that there was some idea that sweatshops were happening, you know, in the 80s and 90s. We were talking about Nike, and things like that. 

But I think it really hit the public consciousness in such a major shocking way in 2013. That was such a watershed moment, I think for the industry and the way consumers engaged with the idea of fashion. That it wasn’t something that was frivolous and had no impact on things around them.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s super interesting. And yeah, I know that there are these sort of, I don’t know, stereotypes or cliches about hemp sacks. So it’s funny that like people literally were writing that that was what sustainable fashion was.

JASMIN 

It was every article that I read at that time. They always had to mention it. I was like, so befuddled by it.

ELIZABETH

Wild. Yeah. And one specific topic that I’m thinking about where the conversation has shifted significantly, in recent years from like, maybe when I first started on my own conscious fashion journey, personally, and also with my writing, is recycled synthetics. 

So I feel like years ago, these were promoted as a really impressive circular solution. But now more and more experts are questioning the sustainability and even the safety of recycling plastic bottles for clothes. 

So there’s all these layers that I guess are coming up in the conversation now that are sort of complicating it. You know I think for awhile, fashion thought that recycled plastic water bottle materials were like a silver bullet.

JASMIN 

Oh, yes, absolutely. Definitely. Especially in the beginning that, you know, I fell into that same trap, too. I was like, ‘Yeah, you know, it’s you’re making it out on our waste. That’s perfect.’ 

And I think the advent of the internet and social media has allowed for more nuanced conversations about this you know, where we are able to get different points of view. 

And you are absolutely right. In recent years we’ve realized that when you take a plastic bottle, and turn it into clothing, you’re taking it away from a stream that actually is circular and can be remade into other bottles, like many times. Whereas once you make it into a garment, there is no way to re-recycle it at scale. 

So it is a circularity deadend. And I know that there are environmental campaigners as well that argue that you are still benefiting from a fossil fuel system that really needs to be re-examined and abolished, really. 

So it’s interesting how conversations have shifted and evolved. And I think that should be the nature of things. The more we learn, the more we hone our understanding of things.

ELIZABETH

Yes, absolutely. I love how you put that, like the conversations evolve. And I think that’s natural. Because yeah, I also was really excited about these recycled plastic water bottle leggings. And maybe that was like one of the more innovative things out on the market a few years ago, but the conversation has sort of shifted.

Sometimes I get frustrated, like, oh, we’re not moving the needle fast enough and you know, when it comes to sustainability, and labor rights in fashion. And in many ways, we’re not. But also sometimes when we look back, we see, okay, the conversation really has grown a lot. And we really have, we really have, like I think, gotten deeper and more knowledgeable about these issues as an industry. 

You mentioned social media, which I think is definitely a huge factor just more voices, more perspectives having access to sharing their perspectives. It also feels to me that journalists play a pivotal role in this shift.

How do you think journalists can play a role in shifting these conversations and making sure that we’re sort of continuing this evolution in the sustainable fashion space?

JASMIN 

I think journalists, just like consumers need to think critically, if not even more critically about these issues. It used to be when a brand would release a capsule collection, people would be like, whoa, this is guilt-free — you know, pollution is solved. That kind of thing. [Laughs]

ELIZABETH

JASMIN

And even today you do see a lot of the fashion bibles with headlines saying, ‘This collection is completely better for the environment. You don’t have to worry about this and that.’ And I think these simplistic arguments are really easy to fall into. 

I know there is a desire, you know, to keep consuming without the guilt and the thinking that goes into it. You know, fashion should be fun, right? 

And I think journalists need to think critically about how they frame these issues, you know, just in general, even if they’re trying to sell the clothing that their magazines are advertising for.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, definitely finding that balance. And I’m with you, the guilt free stuff never sits right. So, yeah, the reframing, I think, is a great way of thinking about it. 

When it comes to sorting through all the pitches that I’m sure that you get to your email, how do you navigate the sort of sea of pitches and maybe capsule collections and initiatives from brands and try to avoid greenwashing as much as possible?

JASMIN 

That’s a nice thing about the work that I do at Sourcing Journal. I’m not really a market editor. And so I don’t write about the latest tank top or what the trends are in skirts. I look more at minimum wages in Cambodia, or more like big picture things like, is the industry falling into a greenwashing trap? 

So I sometimes write about products. Like Allbirds just released a plant-based leather, but that’s probably like 10 to 20% of what I do. My work really isn’t product-focused. It’s more of a bigger-picture scenario.

ELIZABETH

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I’m mostly centered on the sustainability section of the Sourcing Journal website. That’s kind of where I stay. But it feels like Sourcing Journal does promote products less so than, like a big consumer facing magazines since Sourcing Journal’s sort of more industry-focused. 

JASMIN  17:18

Yeah, absolutely. That’s our audience. You know, it’s industry executives, brands, designers, supply chain, people, it’s more of the nitty-gritty of how the industry operates.

ELIZABETH

Yeah.

So a topic that you’ve written several articles on is about various elements of the fast fashion business model and like consequences so like about fast fashions waste crisis, as well as some of the exploitative buying practices. 

I actually wanted to ask you this before the big announcement of Kourtney Kardashian’s collaboration with boohoo as their sustainability ambassador came out. But I wanted to ask you, do you ever foresee a case where fast fashion brands’ sustainability efforts could be seen as something beyond greenwashing, like, do you think that their sustainability efforts could actually be really green?

JASMIN 

It’s really hard to say, right? Because there are fast fashion brands, including H&M, that I do believe are doing really good work in the space. And they have made significant headway in their efforts. 

But there is the other argument that, you know, if you’re not reducing your consumption, your production levels, even if everything is perfectly green, there’s just no way you can find the resources or have the fair labor practices that all that would require, because the pace is just unsustainable. 

So you have to weigh those two sides of it, you know. Do we really need 5 million organic cotton T-shirts every year? 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, totally. And I’ve also read several of your articles about like fast fashion brands, sort of getting these greenwashing warnings from regulators like H&M with the Norwegian Consumer Authority, Britain’s competition watchdog scrutiny of ASOS and boohoo and the criticisms that came out of SHEIN’s first corporate social responsibility report. 

So can you speak to the role of journalists in raising awareness in trying to combat or minimize greenwashing in fashion?

JASMIN

Well, I think the world that I see that journalists play is to just to ask the tough questions. You know, where you’re either a journalist, or you’re just aping a press release.

ELIZABETH  

Mm.

JASMIN 

So I think it’s important not to take statements from brands at face value, and as I mentioned before, really look critically at what they’re saying. And comparing it to what they’re actually doing, and what the consequences of those actions might really be.

In Kourtney Kardashian’s case, the sustainable materials that they talked about was, like made from recycled plastic bottles, which we just mentioned has its issues. But they also lumped in pleather, you know, vegan leather with sustainable materials. And right now vegan leather is made from petroleum. It’s polyurethane. And that is, I think, the opposite of sustainable. 

The story that I wrote, boohoo mentioned traceable cotton, and as one of my sources said, it doesn’t elaborate on what traceable means. Traceable for what? Traceable for who? And it’s things like that. It’s easy to get caught up in buzzwords and things like that. But I think we need to start like looking beyond that to find the actual meaning and intent of those words. 

Because words should have meaning. And the term sustainability has lost a lot of that because of this erosion of specificity that the concept really demands.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. So I had a previous conversation with Kestrel Jenkins, who is the host of the Conscious Chatter. 

JASMIN
Oh yeah, love her. She used to work for Ecoterre.

ELIZABETH

Oh, my gosh, that’s amazing. Yeah and we were talking about like slowing down media and slow media and how, like media moves just like you know, just like social media, media also moves so quickly. And sometimes that might be why we get some of these perhaps oversimplified stories. 

And if you know maybe a journalist who isn’t as educated on sustainability issues as you are and labor issues as you are, they receive this press release from a fast fashion brand and they they might genuinely believe that that is sustainable. Because maybe they have two hours to turn that press release into an article and get it up by the end of the day, or whatever it is. 

How do you think like the speed of media might play into this greenwashing Or maybe sometimes, like oversimplification of stories? Do you see that happening at all? 

JASMIN

I 100% agree with you. The pace of media today is insane. I mean, I’m like, probably a backlog like three months deep right now. Because, you know, I start working on the story, and then the news comes up, and with social media, with the internet, the pace is just unrelenting, you get the news right away.

And, of course, the world’s a mess right now, right? With wars happening, sanctions happening, human rights violations happening. I think it’s really easy to get overwhelmed and, you know, really stretched thin. 

I do have great empathy for my fellow journalists who are just trying to get the work done, so that they can just take the rest — clock out at a decent hour and get on with their lives. I do and I myself, you know, sometimes I just want to like just give me your press release to just write from , because I’m just exhausted, there are moments like that. 

Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t have an answer for that. Because it’s something that I’m grappling with myself, just to the speed of everything. And just you’re just one person most of the time with smaller teams. So it can be a little crazy.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, no, I mean, that’s just really interesting to have that insight into what maybe is like, on the ground, so to speak as a journalist. And just like what the expectations are. 

 And even running like my own website, I struggle with that like this theoretical pressure to produce a certain amount of content and to post on social media every day, to get this podcast out every week, to have several new articles on the website every week. 

It can feel like you’re fighting against everything to slow down and even more so if you are working for a media publication that maybe has a certain number of articles that they expect you to write per week. And it can be a real challenge for sure. 

JASMIN

Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

ELIZABETH

And going back a little bit to the greenwashing. Do you think that these criticisms of the greenwashing campaigns, like as journalists start to maybe be more scrutinizing, like I think the conversation is definitely evolving? Do you think that that deters their behavior at all? 

JASMIN 

Oh, if companies are being fined for what they’re doing, if there is a fiscal penalty, that will change their behavior overnight, companies do not like to lose money for no reason at all. 

And I think that is why you know, campaigners have been trying to move away from this model of self-regulation and voluntary measures where there are no such penalties, to something that is more binding and has real consequences for the brands and the companies.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely. I just saw a story like this morning about H&M’s Conscious collection, like they’re going to remove a lot of this sustainability language from their website, as they navigate how to communicate that more effectively. Because they have been getting a lot of warnings and potentially, fines, or at least the risk of fines. I haven’t looked into the details of that yet. But I’m very anxious to do that later today.

JASMIN 

Yes that’s one of the stories on my never ending list I’m trying to get to and I’m just like, I wish I could pause time or clone myself or something.

ELIZABETH 

Totally. Yeah. And that kind of leads into another question that I had for you, which is something that I definitely struggle with as a content creator. 

How do you choose which topics to focus…like there’s just so much within even sustainable fashion. LIke, it sounds like it’s such a really small niche, but there’s, the more you get into it, there’s just dozens and hundreds of potential topics and issues that you could talk about. 

And sometimes I’ll get direct messages on Instagram. Like, you know, talk about this, or talk about that talk about this, and  there’s also so many things just out of personal interests that I would like to dive into, and how do you figure that out?

JASMIN 

It’s like an ER doctor during triage, you know, you kind of want to figure out, which is the most time sensitive, the one has the biggest impact, for example, something like the UN releasing their long awaited report on Xinjiang, and the the mistreatment of Uyghurs. So that was something that would be like, a priority, and everything else would, pale in comparison, because it’s such a major news story. 

In some cases, there are themes happening, and then you can roll them all into one mega story. For example, if different brands are getting greenwashing warnings, and then you could say something like the industry is dealing with this, and you could say, XYZ brand, you could roll it all into one piece. 

Like I did a story about different protests, labor protests happening in different parts of the world, in, you know, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Haiti, and things like that. So that could be rolled into one piece, because they’re all about workers demanding a better pay that can actually give them the livelihoods that is beyond the base poverty level that they’re struggling with. 

So, that is another way I’ve done it. Mostly, it’s like a game of Whack a Mole, you know, you’re just trying to like, get ahead of yourself. And it can be a struggle, I have to admit. It’s not easy.

ELIZABETH  32:10

Yeah. But that’s a really interesting, and I think, useful idea to find several events, maybe that are along a similar thread and bringing that together, because I think that also helps readers find the connections between all these issues, and not always view it as isolated events. 

Because I do think that a lot of the time, news stories will be just talking about that one isolated event. And I actually think it’s quite helpful to see it through, like well, there’s 10 labor protests happening all over the world, and what does this say about the state of labor in the fashion industry?

JASMIN

Exactly.

ELIZABETH

And sort of, yeah, challenging, maybe readers to think a little bit deeper, rather than just oh, this happened, this happened, this happened.

JASMIN 

Right you’re providing context for it. For example, with H&M, it’s not just that one greenwashing lawsuit, but several brands are grappling with regulators casting scrutiny on their green claims. And so there is a larger reckoning in different parts of the world on this issue.

ELIZABETH

Totally, totally. And are there any areas of sustainability and labor rights that you think we’re not seeing enough discussions about in the media currently?

JASMIN

I think from talking with a lot of labor and environmental campaigners, there seem to be a lack of ownership from brands about their role in that they play in promoting sub-poverty levels and pollution in the Global South, especially. 

We hear a lot about brands’ codes of conduct and how they’ve pledged to behave a certain way, but that doesn’t always bear out in practice. 

And I think, from the people that I’ve spoken with, they would like to see brands being held more to account by the mainstream media for the impact that they have and the outsized influence that they have, that they can change things if they wanted to.

ELIZABETH

Hmm, yeah, that’s really interesting. And I think also a little bit reassuring because sometimes I really like, I maybe call out brands too much. But that’s reassuring. 

And I recently received a comment when I was calling out a brand. Someone said, you’re poking at the wrong end like, consumers want cheap products. And so you should, you know, focus on consumer awareness more. Do you have any thoughts on that point of view? Like what would you say to that?

JASMIN 

Well, for one thing, I don’t think it’s an either or, I mean, you shouldn’t have to pick a lane?

ELIZABETH

Right.

JASMIN

And second of all, I think same with recycling, there’s been, like, so much pressure on the consumer to do it right, whereas corporations with just some changes in their supply chain, could have infinitely greater change from their side. 

I think there’s a lot of guilting consumers, because maybe it’s an easy way out for corporations not to take responsibility for their actions. I do think that needs to change. I mean, that’s not to say that, you know, we shouldn’t do anything. But right now, I think a lot of the burden is being put on the consumer and not enough on the companies that have greater power, and the ability to change things.

ELIZABETH 

Right? Totally. Yeah, I’m 100% with you, like, it’s not like we have to pick one or the other. We can sort of come at it at all ends from educating individuals, pushing for regulatory action, and also holding brands accountable. Like we can do it all, there’s nothing that says that there’s only one avenue towards change. 

JASMIN

Absolutely

ELIZABETH

Yeah, and I think they all can like build on each other as well and sort of influence each other.

I once heard this sort of explanation of educating the sort of educating people on issues makes the legislation more likely to be able to pass because we’ve sort of shifted the culture, and it makes it a more friendly environment for that legislation then to pass because you see, a lot of people also saying, well, individual action doesn’t matter. You know, legislation is all that matters. 

And I am more interested in seeing sort of like the connections between it all and not putting undue pressure on individuals, obviously, but also not making people feel like what they’re doing doesn’t matter, either.

JASMIN  

Yeah, of course, consumers have so much power to change things. I’m always reminded about how 2009, when it was really the consumer-led protest over BPA in plastic that really stopped companies from doing that, and selling alternatives. 

Yes, consumers definitely have power. It shouldn’t be a binary. I think every stakeholder has a role to play: regulators, brands, consumers. I don’t think the blame should be put on one or the other. But, you know, you will also look at who has more systemic power as well. And who should be really called out more?

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I think. That has definitely been like an evolution of my journey. And I feel like also a by-product of that. My platform as well focusing a lot more on holding brands accountable, digging deeper into the systemic issues.

And making people feel like they can make a difference, but also like encouraging people to be part of collective actions through Remake, an incredible fashion advocacy organization that organizes around certain campaigns or Clean Clothes Campaign. When we all come together we can really push for for more change as well. 

But to shift a little bit into maybe a bit more positive note, are there areas in the fashion industry that you’ve seen a lot of progress on in recent years? 

JASMIN  

I think legislation is definitely one to watch, you know, mandatory due diligence. Laws that coming out regarding forced labor, I think in particular in response to what’s happening in Xinjiang has been at the forefront and hopefully, it will pave the way for more regulation.

The EU is really a front-runner with their corporate sustainability due diligence law, as well as the various strategies they have for the textile industry, including things like extended producer responsibility, greenwashing claims, and just the minimum sustainability criteria that products should have. 

So I’m hopeful that we will see more of that, because, you know, that is what will really spark change. Just waiting around for companies to do the right thing is kind of just a lot of hoping and wishing.

ELIZABETH

JASMIN

Maybe like 10% might do it. But we’re really looking at, you know, the bottom half of the, the bottom, like 90% of the glacier that is not doing anything about their practices, and that’s what we really need to tackle through legislation.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I’m also excited to see all the progress with that. And yeah, the EU seems way far ahead but a lot of fast fashion brands are based in the EU as well as in the UK. A lot of the biggest, fast fashion brands are based there so I think that can have a vast impact even on the US because, you know, we see the huge Zara’s, the huge H&M’s and all that in the US as well. 

It is encouraging to see the FABRIC act in the US that’s been getting some more support. So hopefully, hopefully, we’ll see more progress with that as well.

JASMIN 

Yeah, right, especially in the one that’s happening in New York as well. Hopefully, it gets off the ground during the next voting period. There’s a lot of good stuff happening. Like, you know, California passed their law, requiring minimum wages for workers. That was a huge victory for them. It was so so hard won, and I’m so happy that it turned out okay.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, absolutely. And as we close out our conversation here, I was wondering if you could share any tips for anyone listening there that might want to pitch you or another journalist a story. 

Do you look for anything in a pitch, what determines if you just skim a pitch or delete a pitch versus want to go with that story?

JASMIN

For me, personally, if it’s a product post, I’m not really going to look at it unless it’s something super groundbreaking, like in the case of Allbirds making their plant-based leather that doesn’t have any petrochemicals, because that’s super rare.

So it has to be something that has a larger effect on the industry, larger significance to the industry. I’m not going to write about, you know, yoga leggings made of recycled plastic bottles, because that’s not something that’s going to move the needle in any direction. That’s for me, personally.

I mean, other reporters who write more about products that will think differently. So it really depends on who you’re approaching? You know we’re not a monolith by any means. Yeah. So it depends on the publication, depends on the journalist, depends on the editor, and so on.

ELIZABETH 

Mhmm yeah, so maybe doing some research before sending out pitches researching the media publication, and the journalist before pitching a story.

JASMIN 

Oh, yes, please, I get so much non-fashion pitches. I’ve been getting emails about a plant-based water, which to me is just fruit juice.

ELIZABETH
Huh? [Laughs]

JASMIN

If you’re a PR person, it really helps to do that two-second Google look-up of the publication covers.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, totally. I mean, I still get emails to this email address that I haven’t put anywhere in like four years. Someone sold off the email address to some lists, and I still get like ridiculous pitches to that email address and I’m just thinking like, how little time did you spend? 

Or I’ll get an email that says like, dear sir / madam. And I’m like you couldn’t even do like two seconds to see the name of the person that you’re emailing. So it’s funny…

JASMIN 

Yeah. Please tell people to stop sending me stories about quiet quitting because I don’t write about that.

ELIZABETH 

Yes, PSA! That’s funny. 

So Jasmin, thank you so much for spending this past hour with me and sharing all your perspectives and insights. This was really fascinating and I’m sure listeners will get a lot out of it as well. 

I do have one final question for you that I ask everyone that comes onto the show. And that is what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

JASMIN

Just equity for everyone involved, you know, not just brands holding all the power and the money. But even the lowest paid worker in the supply chain should have that sense of autonomy, empowerment, and the ability to provide for themselves and their families.

ELIZABETH  

And that’s a wrap for this episode with Jasmin! Thank you so much for tuning in today. Make sure to subscribe or follow the show in your favorite podcast listening app so you don’t miss more episodes like this one. 

And if you want to get more conscious style, conscious fashion content subscribe to our free weekly newsletter The Conscious Edit at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. I share articles, books, podcasts, videos, events, campaigns, brands, and all that good stuff. 

Subscribers also get access to a 10-page list of sustainable fashion educational resources as a little welcome gift. And so if you are interested in that you can find the signup link in the episode description. 

So I’m looking forward to seeing you in your inbox on Saturday if you’re a subscriber or I’ll catch you again here in your podcast app next Tuesday. 

In the meantime, if you want to listen to another interview that has similar themes to this one, tune in to episode 54 with Kestrel Jenkins all about slowing down media.

Thank you again for tuning in. Take care and I’ll see you again soon.

About Jasmin

Jasmin Malik Chua is the sourcing and labor at Sourcing Journal, where she writes about the apparel and footwear supply chain through the lens of sustainability and human rights.

Connect with Jasmin on Twitter: @jasminchua

The post Journalists’ Role in Shifting The Sustainable Fashion Conversation with Jasmin Malik Chua appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

We’ll be starting off the conversation chatting about conscious crafting and then shifting into conscious entrepreneurship, and the challenges and considerations of growing a small, mindful values-based business.

And this is actually just part one of our conversation. Part two will be published next Tuesday. So make sure you are subscribed or are following this show on your favorite listening app, so that you do not miss part 2 of our chat!

Links From This Episode:

• Ja Wol
• A Smaller Life Podcast
• EP13: How (And Why!) To Make Or Modify Your Own Clothes

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

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Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey everyone and welcome or welcome back to the show! I’m going to keep this episode’s introduction short since it is a bit on the longer side.

But essentially in this upcoming episode, I’m gonna be chatting with Saskia de Feijter who is the founder of Ja Wol and the host of the podcast, A Smaller Life. Saskia guides crafters to a values-based handmade wardrobe and coaches small sustainable business owners.

We’ll be starting off our conversation chatting about conscious crafting and then we’ll shift into conscious entrepreneurship, and the challenges and considerations and just evolutions of growing a small, mindful values-based business. We’ll share some of our tips for managing our time efficiently and staying creative in our business as well.

And this is actually just part one of my conversation with Saskia. Part two will be published next Tuesday. So make sure that you’re subscribed or you’re following the Conscious Style Podcast on your favorite listening app, so that you do not miss part 2 of our chat.

Also, a couple quick reminders, one, the transcript for this episode as well as the relevant links are gonna be in the show notes on consciouslifeandstyle.com, as always.

And secondly, a quick ask, a quick favor, that if you are enjoying the show so far, it would mean so much if you took a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I know it doesn’t seem like these reviews really matter but they really do support the podcast. They help more people find us and convince people to press play so that they can hear these important conversations on sustainability in fashion. And they also help me secure more guests to agree to come onto the show so that they can share their amazing insights and perspectives with all of you.

Okay, without further ado, let’s get on to this week’s episode. Saskia is gonna start us off here sharing how she got into knitting and why she decided to build her own small business.

SASKIA 

I started to go back into crafting because I love my job. And I worked with creatives, but I wasn’t being creative myself. 

So when a friend started knitting, I started knitting and fell head over heels back in love with it and started to teach myself all the techniques that I didn’t know yet. And then within my pregnancy leave within three months, I started my own business in pattern design for knitters. 

I was completely enamored with the process and everything about it. So it started with learning the different techniques and then designing and then there was a sewing cafe that was going to be open soon. So I rang the bell or I called the owner. And I ended up renting a table there for a couple of hours each week and started teaching people how to knit and that is basically the beginning point of my new career in knitting. 

And then I started to teach and I would get two people and then three and then one and then five and then none and then so gradually I would grow and it did some designing still, because I was building a beginner course so I designed all of the project for the beginner course. I don’t know what I was thinking I should have just gotten them from a book but I kind of wanted to do that. 

And then I first did a beginner course for knitting and then for crochet. And then I was teaching in three different locations. And I didn’t even take the yarn and the books out of my car anymore, because it was too inconvenient. 

And then somebody told me about this old fire department that they turn into a set of studios where designers could design and sell their products. So that was a good idea. And then I started to, so my initial plan was to design there and then teach as well. 

But I had the yarns laid out for teaching. And people started asking about them, they’re like, I can’t find any good yarns anywhere, can I can I buy this. And quickly this was my first like, in a series of many pivots in my business, is where I decided, okay, so becoming a knitting pattern designer is not quickly turning into money. So maybe I should just sell yarns and teach. 

And that’s what I did. And then from that studio, I moved into a small shop and then a bigger shop. 

And then in the shop, I started to work with other crafters to design, sustainable and locally made accessories for needle crafters, like bags and tools and things like that. And I worked with yarn brands to design my own yarns. 

And later, I started to dye my own Yars doing really kind of everything, because it was fun, but also because I’m, it’s so hard to make a living with a business like that. So it’s really trying everything. 

And I think what’s also important to say is, in the beginning, my aim was to offer natural materials to all kinds of budgets. And that was where I started, but it turned out that, that was not sustainable for me as a small business. Because in the end, I think you know that somebody is paying that price if it’s not the customer somebody else is. 

And I kind of another pivot focus more on fair pricing, good quality materials, and, and a really transparent way of selling so not overselling products and steady customers that I could just say, do you really need that? Didn’t you just buy this? Or I would be really, I don’t know, honest with them.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because making your own clothes is in general considered like a conscious fashion choice, a slow thoughtful practice. But when we were speaking before you were talking about how there are certain elements that you can sort of take deeper, like the types of yarns that you source, for example. 

So can you share some of those considerations that crafters, whether we’re beginners or more advanced, what can we keep in mind, even if we’re, you know, sewing our own clothes, crocheting, knitting, how can we do that and a thoughtful way?

SASKIA 

Well, I think going through this whole period and learning from all of the things that I did. It’s so clear to me now, but it wasn’t at that time. So I think it’s a process in a way, to teach yourself certain habits. 

But let’s say you are a beginner knitter or sewer, now, I think what’s really important is in the muchness of everything, to be able to focus on your values to know what your values are, and the kind of things you do want to support, and you don’t want to support takes away a lot of the overwhelming choice in knitting and sewing and everything. 

So this has become a lifestyle for me, where I get overwhelmed by too many things, because of my enthusiasm, but also because I’m easily distracted. It’s the way my brain works. And I really started to practice my choosing muscle, and to really start to know myself and, and my industry. 

So I would say, focus on time not only on the practice itself, but everything that goes around it by listening to podcasts like this one, and joining newsletters where you can get actual information about making conscious decisions that are not based on marketing talk from the brands.

And really pulling that back to who you are as a person and how you want to take part in this industry. So there’s that.

If you learn to know yourself a little bit better, then you have kind of a roadmap, how you can choose things. 

So for me, that might be I love to support local, cause with COVID, we’ve all noticed that sometimes the world closes down and you got order from across the world. And then it’s so valuable if you have a local shop that offers the products that you want. So support local, support small business, and depending on where you live if in a bigger city, that’s usually easier. 

But try to see if the shop owner needs a little bit of extra help if they are in a marginalized position. Like I have this checklist. And at some points, I cannot take the box, right? Because it’s simply not available in my city. And then I move across to the next city. And I might even go online. 

But if I go online, is it a small business? Where does the fiber come from? And this might sound like people might sigh and go like, ‘Oh my gosh, I haven’t even knitted yet. I haven’t even learned how to cast on my first stitch and you’re going on about this.’ But in the end, all of this knowledge will help you to have a more focused and more calm practice that feels closer to who you are.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. Yeah, right. And there’s a lot of similarities with just in general, like conscious fashion. Like if you have been trying to find a more sustainable way of accessing, say, a dress and I don’t know how many like secondhand options there are for yarn, but in terms of like prioritizing natural fibers and local and marginalized businesses and all that kind of stuff, I think kind of carries across spaces.

SASKIA

Exactly, exactly. There are some typical things for yarns, I would say. When it comes to wool, which is in my opinion, the best material there is. And as long as the animals are treated well, it’s a good thing to look for non-mulesing wool. And without going into too much detail there is a little issue sheep can have and it’s called fly strike.

And what they do is they cut away the flies go into the, into the exit of the sheep. And what they do to kind of keep that part of the sheet clean is they cut away some of the skin and they don’t often they don’t necessarily do that with pain management.

Yeah, so they just do that. So that’s horrific for the sheep. So, in big big farms with a lot of sheep, this is something that might happen. So if you buy yarns try to look for non-mulesing yarns, which is better for the sheep. And this is typically something that will happen with Merino yarn, because there’s a lot of big Merino farms, especially in Australia, New Zealand. 

But that doesn’t mean that all yarn from that area is bad. And that’s something that’s so hard like I feel on the internet people like pop these things into the air and everybody goes like ‘Oh, stay away from Australian yarn.’

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, these generalizations about a whole country like everything for that country is bad or something. Yeah.

SASKIA 

The biggest country ever so don’t do that because they’re really good farmers there, they’re really good businesses there. And especially when you live in Australia, if you live in Europe, you might not want to shop in Australia, that’s another thing. But make sure you know where the yarn is coming from and that makes it easier in the end.

So I have a few brands that I really liked because I know where they get their fibers, I know where they spin and dye their fibers and they’re transparent about it. They usually small businesses because the bigger brands don’t give that give away that much information and also… 

ELIZABETH 

They might not even know like and the case where it’s like 20 layers in between they might not even know because of outsourced it and people they outsourced to outsource some of their processes which outsourced and it just goes on and on.

And then they might not even know which is why, I’m totally with you. I mean for everything I always try to prioritize small businesses. Obviously, certain things that’s not possible like electronics so I try to source that used as much as possible but in terms of like yarn and clothes, I think it definitely is feasible to source locally in most parts of the world. 

SASKIA 

Most parts, yeah, most.

And in terms of used, there’s different ways you can approach that you can actually go into a thrift store, get a woolen sweater and just unravel it to use the yarn. Which is done. I’ve not done it before because I have like crazy stash. I’m not perfect. Working from stash now — almost 100%; let’s say 99% of the time.

And you can also find just yarn in thrift stores and then you might not know what it is if it’s not on the label, but there’s tests for that if you light the yarn with a lighter or a match, and then you blow it out. And then you crumble it between your fingers. 

ELIZABETH

mmm

SASKIA

If it draws long threads then it’s plastic right? If it’s wool or even cotton if it’s a natural yarn it will be like dust in your fingers so then you can decide what it is.

ELIZABETH

Wow.

SASKIA
It might be a little weird to do that while you’re in the thrift store…

ELIZABETH

Yeah maybe wait till you’re home for that one!

SASKIA 

But you can ask: can I go outside with a little bit of yarn and I’ll return in a second?

So there’s that and just swap swapping with your friends and go on in communities in my own community we do that. We have a marketplace for people that want to swap things they don’t need anymore don’t want anymore.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I imagine like a Buy Nothing group too might occasionally have that. But yeah, I’m thinking about my local thrift store if I’ve ever seen yarn. I’ve definitely seen gift wrap. There’s a lot of like wrapping paper and ribbons. So you know I’m sure at some point they get, they get yarn.

You know, even people starting a project and they have leftover yarn or maybe they bought all these crafting supplies perhaps during COVID thought they were going do this project and then they never did. 

SASKIA  

Or granny dies. It happens…

Yeah or not even and just granny. Because I think knitting just gets attached to granny still a lot. We owe them so much, so we have to have respect for the knitting grannies, but it’s much more than a granny hobby. Let me just put that out there.

ELIZABETH

And I noticed on your site, you have a like Moth Buster, download. So can you just really quick share your tips on how we can maybe avoid getting moth holes?

SASKIA

Absoltely, yeah, I spent a lot of time researching it. Because with that, there’s also a lot of like urban myths around how to deal with moths. There’s actually one kind of moth that actually gnaws at your natural fibers, not necessarily just wool, they can like eat cotton as well.

But it’s not the moth — it’s the grub that eats it. So if you see a moth flying that doesn’t mean that your yarn is in immediate danger. It becomes dangerous when there’s another one from the opposite sex. 

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, the larvae.

SASKIA  

Yeah, the larvae. I say grubs. But that’s not the right word. Yeah, the larvae. But we’re talking about the little wormy thing. They’re kind of, I think personally, that they’re kind of gross, because there might enemy. 

I’m a vegetarian, almost vegan. But moths really cannot stay in my house. And they’re notoriously hard to catch. So they will perish if they come near me. Like I will catch a spider and a fly and a bee and I will release them back into the wild, but moths not so much. 

So what you can do is they do not like lights and air. So my sweaters and everything I have wool is actually hanging out. My wardrobe doesn’t have any doors. So whenever I grab a piece of clothing, everything moves that round. And they don’t like that there’s not direct sunlight, because that would hurt the colors, but there’s light there. 

But as soon as you tuck away things, in drawers in the back of your closet in dark spaces, and you don’t touch it until the next season, you’re basically forked. 

So leaving them out and airing them a lot works. If you cannott or won’t do that, that’s a hard thing always for me, because the best thing are those plastic containers where you just click the lid on, so that nothing goes in them.

ELIZABETH  

I was gonna ask about vacuum-sealed bags?

SASKIA

You can do that. You can do that.

ELIZABETH

I live in kind of a small space and I’ve already taken up too much of the closet my husband doesn’t have space left.

SASKIA 

You’re a fashion podcaster — you have an excuse.

ELIZABETH

So I do put away like my bulky sweaters and stuff like that because I have quite a lot because it gets very cold in winters but very warm in summers here in the Chicago area. So I do put them in vacuum-sealed bags under our bed.

SASKIA 

Yes, that works, that’s great.

ELIZABETH

Okay.

SASKIA

And the best thing you can do is before you tuck them away, give them a rinse or a wash. Because wool doesn’t need as much washing as people might think. Even woolen socks don’t. Like I know I’m going this is crazy for some people…

ELIZABETH 

No, I’m with you. I wear these socks like three times and they like don’t smell what is this? All my other socks would smell!

SASKIA 

It’s the magic of wool. That’s why I love it so much. If cotton had those kinds of properties and it wouldn’t use up so much water. I would stick to cotton. Sure. I would love to be able to do everything with plants. 

But in my opinion, wool is so much better in so many ways because of the warmth and it takes up 30% of its own weight in, in water, in liquids. So you can actually walk into the rain and not feel cold or wet for a long time. 

This is why it’s great for socks for walking socks, and it doesn’t need washing that much, which is great, because we don’t want to wash that much doing so that’s good. 

But when you tuck away your wool for the winter, do one wash. And just there’s washing detergent out there that have lanolin within it, so you don’t have to rinse it out. The idea is actually to bring the lanolin, which is the wool fatty substance back to the wool to keep it flexible and moisture-wicking, I would say. 

Do that, and then tuck them away. And then when you take them out for the winter season, just air them and you’re good. 

So unless you have stains, don’t wash it just air it. And if you’re in an area where you get snow, a snow bath is awesome for sweaters. If it’s snowing outside, just put your sweaters in the snow, turn them around, and then dry them in your house. Yeah, that’s really cool. That really works. Or a drizzle. That works too. 

So yeah, that’s the best thing you can do with moths, and I can add something to that. They don’t like smells. So cedar, lavender, is most used smells for scaring moths. But you can also just use a piece of soap that has a distinct smell. And that works as well.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, no, those are really, really great tips. Thank you for that. 

ELIZABETH 

And so shifting gears a little bit into like the business portion of this conversation, because I also wanted to dive a bit more into your various business shifts and what you’re doing now. 

So you mentioned that you owned a yarn shop but you’ve closed that down since. 

I know, like right now you have a community of makers and sellers. So can you speak to like, more about why you made that transition and what you’re up to right now?

SASKIA 

Yeah, definitely. So a couple of years ago, I had a couple of scary moments when my heart rate out of nowhere got extremely high. And so after testing, I was diagnosed with a congenital heart issue disease, where I didn’t know I had, and I had a heart operation. And after some months, it took me to realize what happened and how I felt about it. I did some deep diving in my heart. And I know that I needed to work less. 

And although it wasn’t connected to stress, it did feel like it wasn’t going to help me. So I lowered the amount of hours that I spent in the shop. And although I had, I could afford only one person to help me for one day, I had to close the shop down an extra day. And that was going on and then COVID hits and I have asthma as well. And being overweight. I had three really major issues that put me at risk for COVID. 

So I was one of the first shops in my area. I think I was the first one to actually close my doors before we even went into lockdown. And I kind of never reopened. That wasn’t the plan initially. I just really did some soul searching and reflecting and I thought okay, what’s my business like? What is it doing? How is it succeeding? And how does it fit into my life and my health?

And I ended up deciding that it would be better to let go of the shop because it wasn’t… it was successful, depending on what you would say is success. I made a profit. I made a profit quite quickly within three years. But it was steady and not very high, whatever I did. It was just a lot of hard work for a very low pay. 

With the added heart issue, it took a little bit of the fun and the challenge of that in a way. Because I ran on this as a challenge for a long time because I love the industry so much. I love the craft so much. I love the product so much. It just really forced me to be realistic, for my situation. 

And then because we were in lockdown, I opened up a digital community. I already had it but I wasn’t making a lot of use out of it at that point. And I knew that people wanted to talk to each other about their projects and so I opened that up for my members and my followers on social media. And that’s where I started my community and it has — even the community within what is it now I think three years is always evolving. I’m always workshopping things: what’s working, what’s not working?

It was a couple of dollars to get in the beginning, then I opened it up for free because I wanted to be as inclusive as I could during the lockdown. And then I decided no, this is my new job, I need to get paid for my work. And in order to make that work, I want to offer more. 

So I thought of this whole idea that I could make this journey for the members of the community. And I upped the price a lot because I had this plan. 

But the community didn’t really understand at that point what I was going to do, because I was kind of early. You hear about it a lot these days about going into a community and going through a journey to accomplish something. But that was kind of really new at the moment, especially in my industry and all the people that came in for free most of them left. So I had to really deal with that. 

And now I have found a way that is really working. But my business has started over completely. It’s a whole new business. So that’s a little bit of a, there was a little bit of a hit to, to know that I’m starting from the beginning. Of course with my experiences, but like having that in mind and not I have to be patient with growing this from the beginning. 

So now, the community is aimed at the crafters and the sellers. 

So crafters being I would say hobbyists, people that love knitting, crocheting, sewing, spinning, all kinds of needle crafts, or even if you’re just a creative, you’re welcome. And together, step by step, I give you monthly topics and small challenges that are doable, just for fun. And then gradually you get closer to building your conscious wardrobe. 

So it’s not a course, it’s very low profile. It’s very friendly. It’s a low price, but you have to pay and that’s how I make it safe for everybody. So no one is kind of watching and lurking, and it’s a very safe environment. 

The other parts are the sellers. So I have a different group. It’s called the Building Better Businesses circle. And I am almost together with them but a little bit ahead. And the last three years I focused on all the things that I needed as a small business to really develop a step-by-step easy program so that they can build their small businesses and make it grow, make them grow, and go a little bit beyond the day-to-day. 

I’ve invested three years of my time taking courses, reading books, and all the experience that I already have, I can offer them what they need in a moment. So I asked the small business says what do you want to work on, and then I go on, make the content, we talk about it, we have assignments, challenges, and this is what we do. 

Then in the end, the makers and the sellers, like a fairy tale come together in community. And this is my big dream that like-minded people that want to do better, that want to have a conscious lifestyle in fashion, in making, in crafting, that they can see that they don’t need that many people, as long as they have the right people around them.

ELIZABETH

Yeah definitely. And I mean, I think like conscious entrepreneurship, you know, in slow fashion space and other similar spaces can be such a challenge, because there’s this sort of, like I don’t know, I guess, mainstream entrepreneurial advice of like, grow big, grow fast, and like, kind of do whatever it takes to get there. 

Even if you damage, your health hustling, pulling all-nighters, I mean, you hear all these wild things. And you know, advertising in whatever way possible. Lowering your costs as low as they can go, while also having your prices as high as the market will bear, so you can have the biggest profit margins.

I mean, going to business school, and being in that business world for many years, both, like in my job, and also like, curious about entrepreneurship, just a lot of things about that did not sit well with me, like at all. It just felt very, against my values. And I was like, if I’m going to start a business, I don’t want it to be something that feels so icky. 

You know, it was like, I want to grow this sustainable fashion platform, but I don’t want to do it in unsustainable ways, for myself, or also, in ways that didn’t feel good to me. That didn’t feel right.

And so I’m curious what that’s been like trying to build a business that’s aligned with your values, like, do you have tips for people who are struggling with that?

SASKIA 

Oh, my gosh, it’s so it’s basically the most complicated thing to have a sustainable business that’s also sustainable for yourself. Because burnout is a thing, it’s not helping anyone if we all burn out. 

So I just want to share this. That one of the business owners in my business circle has made a video about her business. And it totally made me cry. It was so beautiful. It was like the epiphany of the small craft business, and you basically wanted to buy everything she has, and live in her world of naturally dyed beauty. You know what I mean? It was just so beautiful. 

And it made me cry, because I know how hard it is to keep businesses like that going, and we need the business. We need it to be commercial. It’s not a hobby. So there’s that part where you do have to be business savvy about it and say that we need to ask the price that it’s actually worth.

And a lot of people in crafts, in small businesses in crafts start they from a passion. They don’t have a business education. So they compare, or they set their prices, talking to their, on one hand, their peers — so the people that they used to craft with are now their customers and they’d say, this is too expensive; I can’t afford this. And then they keep their prices low, and it’s killing them. 

And so on one hand, I really want to say that if you start a business in this, this kind of business like a yarn dyer, if you’re a yarn dyer, or if you knit sweaters for people, you really need to think about it’s quite easy to do the math beforehand, like how much do you have to sell in order to get to the income that you need? And a lot of the time, it won’t look like a feasible business. And then you have to really decide what to do.  

So people just go into it. And I was one of those people. They go into it from their passion, and that makes it really hard to have a business that really works. 

And then there’s the bit of your values, that ethical marketing. I’ve been focused on that a lot. I’ve been taught different ways of marketing that I don’t subscribe to now that I don’t want to use anymore. It’s a journey to find ways that work. 

So social media, I don’t believe in social media anymore, from a business perspective. Because over the years, I’ve looked at it, and I’ve seen that, however much people think what I bring is inspiring. It didn’t bring me — I wouldn’t say any — but enough customers. So I wouldn’t put in so much time and effort to entertain people that should be my customers. Right? So I’m trying to look at it from a value-based…

ELIZABETH

I mean the ROI, like the return on investment isn’t there. It’s not maybe that social media brings you zero, but is it worth the amount of time that you’re investing in it? 

SASKIA 

Exactly, yeah. And how can you do it differently? So that’s something I’m also working on within the business circle is how can we offer different ways of marketing? And how can we work together to figure out what will work?

And then looking at ethical marketing and just being really open and transparent to people and then kind of hoping in a way that they understand that that is the way to go. And if they are able to choose between the moguls and value-based small businesses, if they can actually step away from the want, want want and the more, more and more that which we have all been like, forced fed almost.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, more is better in all senses…

SASKIA  

More and cheaper, that’s what… and they still kind of sometimes go back default to that sometimes. And I go like whoa, what am I doing? And I’ll be like oh, this is cheap, no Saskia, do you actually need it?

And this is also something I try to focus on. Do you work from what you need? And then you can still make it fun. You can still choose materials and patterns that you love, but just not get distracted by everything that is on your feed right off of Instagram or Pinterest. I’m like, I want this I need this. I want this I need this. Do you?

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, like shiny object syndrome is totally a thing in like entrepreneurship too. Oh, this person is doing this cool thing I need to do that or they launch this cool product, I need to launch this too. They have a course, I need a course. They have a membership, I need a membership. They have a TikTok I need a TikTok — and all the things.

 And it’s just like consumption, like products. We’re constantly tempted to shop on social media.

But I feel like, in terms of entrepreneurship, I often feel that like, Oh, they’re doing this cool thing and this cool thing. And it’s hard to figure out, okay, what feels core to me? What feels core to my audience? What feels core to my business?

And although there’s moments where I feel very inspired by what other people are doing on Instagram, I have to take breaks. I need to take breaks so I can reflect. And this is something that our previous guest, Kestrel Jenkins talked about in an episode on slowing down media, which was like sometimes you don’t even know what you want.

Like you might not even know where you want your business to go. Because you’re so confused by what everybody else is doing. That’s so important to just get more clear on what you want and what — as you were saying before, like what even is success to you?

SASKIA

Exactly, exactly. So there’s a couple of things that come up when you say all of this. Like, if you kind of feel uncomfortable with social media and you’re afraid to leave, what I used to do was I would do December turnarounds. I would actually show a picture of the back of my head, like, I’m not here at the moment, and then December, I would leave social media altogether. So that was the first step I took. 

And then there’s a couple of more steps that I talk about in one of my podcast episodes. So taking that break. But also when you’re eager to buy something, just don’t buy it the second you feel like you want it. Just give yourself a day or a week and if you still want it, you have processed that thought and you really need it and all of that. 

And one of another person in my business circle, her name is Saskia as well, she had an amazing idea. 

So she started this Pinterest board and she calls it make-believe shopping. And she puts on everything that she kind of wants. And then she comes back to it and see if she still wants it. And if it still matches her values. 

And coming back to your question, what is my tip for starting small businesses? It’s the same thing as my tip for makers. First, find out who you are as a maker. What are your values? What is important to you? The future, your family? 

And if you have written it down,because everyone is so ‘Yeah, I want everybody to be happy and peace in the world.’ That’s easy, but really actually doing and finding out what, what’s your top three, right? And you’re not a bad person if number 10 on the list doesn’t come into your shopping actions. 

But make it a little bit easier for yourself to, to look at who you are as a business owner in this case, and then start building your business from there. 

How do you communicate through your audience? How do you organize your workday so that you can show up as your best self and sharing from your heart and offering products that are really led by your soul.

It sounds a little bit like that’s not practical, but it really is. You just need a pen and a paper and start doing the work. And it will really help you to limit the amount of choices you have. If you have that limit, then you have more focus. And if you have more focus, you will go a little faster because you’re not distracted. And if you go a little faster, you can grow your business faster. 

I’m not saying that — I’m all about the slow living — but a lot of small businesses just get stuck in the day-to-day and like they come into the shop, they open the door, they see a little bit of a mess, they start cleaning the mess, they go like ‘Oh, I need some coffee’, they put on coffee, then the first customer comes in, then I have a conversation. 

And before you know it, it’s the end of the day, and they have just worked in their business instead of on their business. 

ELIZABETH

Yes. And it happens online, too. Like with email like I have not perfect at this by any means, but a goal of mine has been like for this year (and this is August and I’m still very much working on it) closing my email app and trying for as many hours not to look at my email. I’m trying to just do look at it in the morning and at the end of the day.

I have not accomplished that yet, but I’m looking at it less because email is, I feel like the biggest for online businesses, like you get stuck, as you said, in the business. And you’re just constantly just responding to requests whatever’s incoming to you and like you’re not having this time to like create or just like think a bit more about what you want to bring out into the world.

SASKIA 

Strategies or goals, right. And that day to day, it will never end, it will never end. It’s like the laundry, it will never end. So you better come to terms with that, and rise above that and just let go. Like, I hate it when people say let go, I’m always like, if I could, I would, wouldn’t I? I’m not stupid. 

But yeah, just rise above the day today and just give yourself the opportunity to really focus on what your wishes are, and what your goals are, and do that work. And there’s a lot of opportunities to get help with that. And a business coach is one of them. But a business coach can be very expensive. So yeah, just listen to podcasts and join the community.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, and having a virtual assistant, or if you’re, you know, have an in-person shop, an assistant that comes in, is so, so useful. I think that, I was on another podcast about business stuff and talking about I hired before I was even full-time in my business myself. And it actually enabled me to go full-time in my business. 

Like I started working with a partnerships manager who handled all the emails with brands that I’m working with. And not only did it free up my time and stress. 

Secondly, she was able to bring in like more revenue, because she has connections and is able to sort of advocate for Conscious Life & Style more than I was. Going back to your pricing point, when I was pricing myself, it was probably like below market value, like not valuing myself. 

You really genuinely care about the small businesses that you’re working with or your customers like if you’re yarn shop. You want to help people and you want to be accessible, but you also have to, like value yourself and your work. And she was able to, from like a more objective view, like, do that. 

SASKIA 

Yeah and respect the whole industry. Because if your prices are too low, then the whole industry kind of well “suffers”. 

I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned, what you just mentioned, is hiring as soon as possible. And the idea that I have when I had a shop was I’m not doing this work, not to earn a living. So I need to earn a living myself first before I can hire. 

And because I didn’t have that business education, I come from a marketing and communication background. I didn’t really click with the idea of when you bring somebody in, you grow exponentially. 

So one of the things I did in my new business now is I worked for another company, and I put away a part of the money I earned to put into this business. And then I invested in getting some coaching myself, which is super valuable. Like within the first 30 minutes of talking to this coach, I already had like six epiphanies. It was great. That’s money well spent. 

Then the next thing is actually getting a VA also. Because we are all good at some things and terrible at other things.

ELIZABETH

Right.

SASKIA
One of the first things I did was hire somebody to do my numbers because I really utterly hate them and they take away so much of my energy that is totally worth the money. 

Then the next thing is an editor for my podcast. Great, great, great idea that was. Although I love editing, like the latent perfectionist that’s still within me, even though I’m battling it on a day-to-day basis will make me work on something for thrice the time that I should.

ELIZABETH

Yes, yes. I would literally spend the entire day editing a podcast episode

SASKIA  

Absolutely and I would re-record it.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, totally. It’s so easy to get caught up in the perfectionism when you’re like, editing. 

SASKIA

We don’t have to do everything, right? It’s not possible, you cannot stay healthy if you’re doing everything. 

Having a business is a serious thing. Like it’s not a hobby, right? There’s a lot of energy that goes into it, and especially the kind of businesses that we’re talking about.

Like another tip is start making a list of all the things that you do, and then highlighting the things that you hate in reds, and the things that you love in green, and everything that’s meh, do use, I don’t know, I would say, yellow. You can choose your own colors. But you get the idea.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. I’m totally with you. One great tip I learned from listening to entrepreneurship podcasts was like, even if you’re a solopreneur, start developing processes. Like it can be easy to just do it however you’re feeling, which like I’m all for, like finding your flow, but write down the steps that you are doing for something. 

Use a project management software, like Asana, which is the basic version is free. And like just start organizing things, and it makes it so much easier to bring on help when you already have like processes in place, when things are organized. 

And like a place like Dropbox or Google Drive and folders and like just try to be organized and develop some processes. So when you onboard people, it’s not totally overwhelming.

SASKIA 

Exactly. It takes away so much time pressure, because it’s such a smooth way to do things. The thing though, is with creative businesses, I think I was like that before that people are like, ‘Oh no! I need to be able to do whatever I feel like doing because I’m a creative person.’ And okay, I can see that when you talk about no, actually, I don’t know, no…

I think as a creative person, you will benefit from making sure you have processes in place. And I think for me, doing this with a podcast has made it possible for me when something goes wrong, I can communicate and market a new episode and do everything that is around the podcast except for the recording and the editing. I can do that in two hours, or even less. 

And before that, it would take me more than double like making the artwork… Like it’s if you don’t know what that entails, then it’s kind of hard to… but it’s a lot of work. Like you have to write texts, and put it on different websites, and write the show notes and get the… Because it might even be hard for you to remember a time where you didn’t like ask people before to send you a picture or simple things like that. If you have to do that, just a day before you go live and the person is not reacting then you don’t have a picture, right? 

It’s a silly example. But yeah, having processes in place is so, so valuable.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, I mean, it frees up your time and space to be creative when you have sort of processes in place. Because you don’t have to be like wait, am I forgetting this? Am I forgetting that? And you’re not like up at night being like, oh my gosh, I forgot this. I mean, I’m not saying that never happens to me. Obviously, it still does. 

But the more processes that are in place, the more I can sort of like rest easy and just like yeah, focus on like our conversation focused on researching for the interview, for instance. And actually just enjoying our conversation because everything else was like sort of in place.

Having structures and processes doesn’t mean that you can’t be creative. It’s just like having some sort of, I guess, like boundaries around things so that like you do have, you have just that space to be creative. 

I booked the interviews now through Calendly for instance and I have like set questions in advance. So for anyone unfamiliar Calendly is like a scheduling software. So I send the link to Saskia. She goes in and I have like certain times that I’m available, so I record on Mondays and Wednesdays.

That’s like a boundary that’s like a structure that I’ve set in place and allows me to not be overwhelmed. Like I was doing just interviews, any which day and time and it was just like, I was like, all over the place. 

Like there’s a book called Deep Work, which talks a lot about this just having extended periods of time that you can think and get creative, or, you know, research something or whatever. I didn’t have these long stretches of time, because I was just like getting on calls any which time.

So anyway, Calendly send you the link, and you know, you book your time, answer the questions, put in your bio, your headshot, all that stuff. And like, that’s just already there for me. And it’s a process, but it enables you to be more creative, like and you just have more time. And like, you need so much more time than you think to be creative. 

SASKIA  

Hmmm…Exactly. And it’s really funny because before that, I got on this conversation. I had a quick online coffee with Hannah Lisa Haverkamp, who is the editor of Making Stories, it’s a knitting magazine. And we had a similar conversation. Like she said, I’m not typically a creative person, but opening up time for myself to really process all the things that I’ve been doing, that opens up the possibilities for new ideas to emerge, right? 

So I think having processes and having step-by-step ways of doing things… I even have days that have a topic like on Monday, I typically do planning and strategy. And on Tuesday is the Ja Wol community, on Wednesday, it’s the podcast. 

So I have focus points. And within those focus points, I’m, I’m a very enthusiastic bullet journalist, but the minimal kind. But the process of bullet journaling that really opens up possibilities for well, insights in things that you keep doing that are not helping you towards your goals. Things you can let go of — it makes that so insightful. 

For me, it really helps to have boundaries that you talk about. I mean, we could talk a whole episode about boundaries. With the type of brain that I have, I need to set boundaries, right? Bullet journaling is like medication to me. 

I’ve only quite recently in the last two years realized that how do I work and what works for me and even within the last week, I realized with the help of a coach that I’m at my best when I’m active and I’m making things.

And when I get into rumination mode is when it’s a fine line to overthinking and thinking negatively and like chipping away at my self worth. So I really have to just make things, whether that is a sweater, or a product or a service, and just going through that process of getting to know yourself as a person, as a business owner, really is amazing. 

And I love the process, but it hasn’t been easy. My gosh, no, it’s been really, really hard. I’ve, I’m by far perfect. So this whole product or process and things that I’m offering, I’m offering from the position of a guide. This is where I’ve been, this is what I’ve done, this is what helped me, these are alternatives that might help you. Let’s talk about it. What do you need? And what can you offer? 

And conversations like this — so valuable. Obviously, the obvious part is that your community is now listening to me. But at this moment, I’m listening to you. And I’m getting a lot from what you’re saying. And when I interview people for my podcast, and you’ve been mine, as well, I’m getting a lot from you. So even though my business has been almost forced to start over, it’s been such a great journey I’ve learned so much in only the last three years. It’s been amazing.

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for part 1 of this conversation with Saskia. Stay tuned for part 2 next Tuesday. Again, don’t forget to hit subscribe or follow on your listening app of choice so you do not miss it!

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It’s a big question but in this episode, Conscious Life & Style contributing writer and Conscious Style Podcast guest host Stella is interviewing the Living Wage Coordinator at Clean Clothes Campaign, Anne Bienias to explore.

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ELIZABETH

What will it really take to ensure living wages for garment makers across the fashion industry?

It’s a big question with a complex answer. But in this episode, Conscious Life & Style contributing writer and Conscious Style Podcast guest host Stella is interviewing the Living Wage Coordinator at Clean Clothes Campaign to explore.

STELLA

Hello and welcome back to this week’s episode of the Conscious Style Podcast. If you haven’t heard my voice around here before, my name is Stella Hertantyo and I am the guest host on the show, as well as a contributing writer at Conscious Life & Style and Conscious Fashion Collective.

Now, let me ask you a question.

Did you know that it takes just four days for a CEO from one of the top five fashion brands to earn as much as a garment worker in Bangladesh earns in her entire lifetime?

Millions of people work in textile, clothing, and footwear production around the world. And yet, the vast majority are not paid enough to fulfill their basic needs. 

In fact, no major clothing brand pays its garment makers in Asia, Africa, Central America, or Eastern Europe enough to break out of cycles of poverty. It is this reliance on low, non-livable wages that upholds the fast fashion industry. 

So a just and sustainable fashion future is really not possible without holding fashion billionaires accountable and advocating for living wages for garment workers that addresses extreme income inequality.

As Orsola De Castro of Fashion Revolution says, “we need to demand quality, not just in the clothes we buy, but in the lives of the people who make them too.”

To unpack this further, in today’s episode, I am joined by Anne Bienias, who is the Living Wage Coordinator at the Clean Clothes Campaign.

Anne that is currently based in Cambodia. And she is involved in various campaigns including the Pay Your Workers campaign, and the Good Clothes Fair Pay campaign, which is a campaign demanding living wage legislation across the garment, textile, and footwear sector. She also closely follows minimum wage struggles in clothing production countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Cambodia.

And in today’s episode, Anne shares why living wages are an essential element of a more just slow fashion future. She covers so many insightful topics, including:

• Why paying garment workers low, non-livable wages is what underpins fast fashion.
• What a living wage is, how they are determined, and how this differs from a minimum wage,
• Whose responsibility it should be to ensure that living wages are paid,
• The most effective way to hold brands accountable to pay living wages without jeopardizing the livelihoods of workers.
• And why paying garment workers higher wages doesn’t necessarily mean that they will lose their jobs. 

So let’s get into today’s conversation. Here, Anne is starting us off by sharing her background and how she came to work with the Clean Clothes Campaign.

ANNE 

So my name is Anne. I work with Clean Clothes Campaign. And yeah, my journey started in 2014, I think when I was in Cambodia, doing research for my master’s thesis, and then garment workers started protesting in Phnom Penh demanding higher wages. 

And these protests were labeled political, and very soon, the government in Cambodia cracked down on workers who were actually peacefully protesting. And I worked with the union in Cambodia at the time, so I witnessed everything from very close by. 

And this union is a member of the Clean Clothes Campaign network. And that’s actually how I learned about the CCC, Clean Clothes Campaign. So when I finished my studies, I actually immediately knew, like, this is where I want to work.

STELLA 

Wow, that’s amazing. So I love that your journey began right on the ground at the beginning of all of this action, and that you kind of made your way to where you are now as the living wage coordinator since your studies.

And I was wondering if we could chat a bit more about those issues in the fashion system when it comes to garment workers because garment workers are indispensable to the functioning of the global garment sector. Yet, so often, their labor is both underpaid and undervalued in so many ways. 

And I remember Sandra Niessen from Fashion Act Now, she describes these garment production hubs as fashion sacrifice zones, which I think is a really great description, because it describes how fashion or fast fashion specifically treats these communities as disposable for the sake of growth. 

So I was wondering, from your perspective, how has the reliance on low non-livable wages really upheld the fast fashion industry?

ANNE

Yeah, I think that’s a great question. From my perspective, I think poverty wages are a characteristic of fast fashion. 

But since wages only make up a very small percentage of the price that garments brands pay factories. They are probably not the only components that is undervalued or not priced correctly. 

So yeah, when I speak about pricing, I think there are a lot of systematic issues with regards to pricing. And by pricing, I mean, how brands determine what price they want to pay for a specific amount of pieces of clothing. 

So for one order, so the price of labor, so yeah, the money that will go to workers eventually, should be based on a very serious and realistic estimation of how much time it takes to produce one piece. We call that labor minute costing. 

But yeah, what we see often is that instead brands usually pay like a lump sum to their suppliers. And in this lump sum, costs for material usually makes up the largest part of this lump sum. And wages are only a very, very small part of that.

If you’re buying a piece of clothing, and you want to get an idea of how much a worker was paid to make that piece of clothing, I think a really good rule of thumb is to understand that usually the price that a brand paid to the factory, is 25% of the retail price. 

So if you’re buying a t-shirt for $20, you can sort of, I think it’s a good estimate to think that $5 was paid for that t-shirt. And then from that $5, between 5 and 12% of that price of that $5 is usually reserved for labor costs.So yeah, that means that roughly 25 to 60 cents from your $20 T-shirt will go to factory workers. 

And in negotiations between brands and their suppliers, it really seems like every penny counts. Like they really will bargain to the until they get absolutely the lowest price.So it’s all about efficiency and not so much about labor rights or fair prices.

So yeah, for me, in that regard, I think low wages are kind of a symbol of the fast fashion industry. Where, yeah, it seems much more important to have the latest styles in stores as fast as possible, rather than thinking about whether or not your business is violating any human rights.

STELLA 

Yes, totally. That was just really, really interesting what you were saying about how little even if we use a t-shirt as an example of that money in the pricing actually goes to the garment workers. 

And I think this race to the bottom, chasing efficiency and speed and the latest styles, the true cost of that is really shouldered and the burden of that is really shouldered by many different communities and common workers are a big part of that, because their labor is not valued in the way that it should be when it comes to our clothing. 

So I really love how you explained that. Are there any other systemic issues that you wanted to mention, when it comes to pricing? You said there were quite a few that come to mind?

ANNE 

I think when it comes to pricing, I think, I don’t know, because in my work, I’m mostly focused on wages. But just thinking that a supplier has to make, usually costing or pricing is done in a way that there’s not a very clear breakdown of this much money has to go there, this much money has to go there. 

But of course, for the supplier, some things just cost what they cost. So the electricity bill of the factory will be what it is, or the water bill that they have to pay. So there are only a few things that they can play around with a little bit. So one would be their own margin. But of course, they also want to make a bit of profits. So yeah, it’s unlikely that that is what they’ll reduce.

So I think the whole problem is that when pricing is done, brands are not really looking at what things actually cost, but they only think about what they want to pay. And that is just as little as possible. 

And I think the problem is that if a supplier declines an order from a brand, a brand will just go elsewhere, right? Because there’s always a supplier who will accept that order, or who will do it for an even lower price. 

So yeah, I think international competition, obviously plays a big role here and is very problematic when it comes to fair pricing. Because it’s such a competitive industry.

STELLA

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that segues us really well into chatting a bit more about, like you said, your work with living wages since you are the Living Wage Coordinator at the Clean Clothes Campaign. 

And I think this term ‘living wage’ is often heard in conversations about creating a more just fashion system. And I was wondering if you could just help us understand what a living wage is and how they’re determined and how this differs from what we also hear about often, which is minimum wage.

ANNE 

Yeah, of course, I think this is again, a very interesting question, because I think originally, a minimum wage was actually supposed to be a living wage. 

If you look at very early references to what defines a minimum wage, for example, in the first ILO documents referring to a minimum wage, that definition seems fair, pretty much the same as what we as Clean Clothes Campaign currently defined as a living wage. 

Which is a wage that is enough to cover basic needs for a worker and their dependents. And it should be earned within a standard working week. At CCC, we always add that a standard working week should not be more than 48 hours. 

And I think there’s also, in general, an agreement about what basic needs are. So housing, food, enough money to pay for school fees, or medical fees, some money to buy clothes or other necessities, and then, of course, some money to pay for transportation or nowadays also, I think communication should be in there. And then a small amount to keep for savings. 

So that’s what a living wage is, but I think originally a minimum wage was supposed to be that. And I think the best way to determine what a living wage is for garment workers, should first of all always involve garment workers. 

So any study or research into how much does a garment worker need in this place or that place? I think there’s no way to understand what a worker needs if you don’t involve them in this process. 

So CCC recently actually worked on its own estimation for European production countries for what a living wage should be in those countries. We used the Asia Floor Wage Alliance methodology for that. 

And but for this methodology, we usually start by doing food basket research. So basically, literally go into the market and buy what you would buy if you were to have a nutritious diet, and then see how much you spend for one person plus their dependents. 

So then, after that, you have to determine what percentage of the household income is spent on food. And there is a whole theory about this. It’s called Engel’s Law. And that says that usually in lower income countries, this percentage is higher. So yeah, maybe you can imagine that a very poor family would spend maybe up to 50, or 60% of their income on food. 

So that means that they have only 50 or 40% left to spend on other things. And the higher the household income is the lower that this percentage will get. So as soon as you determine that percentage, then you can, based on the food basket, determine how much 100% would be. And then that would be your living wage. 

But now I went a bit quickly. But of course, there are also some political choices that you have to make in such a calculation. For example, we argue that a living wage is never an individual wage. It’s not a wage for one person, but a family wage or a wage for a worker and their dependents.

And another choice that you have to make very early on, if you want to start calculating how much living wages, again, is a little bit technical, and maybe seems a bit funny, is how many calories a worker needs to perform their job. Because this has quite big implications for the food basket. As the food basket is the starting point for the whole calculation, it’s actually quite important. 

So for example, if you imagine that a specific diet costs $100, if we count on 2200 calories per day per person, but it might cost $130 if we count on 3000 calories per person, this adds up quite quickly, of course, if it’s multiplied by 30 days. So these are some of the choices that you have to make if you want to estimate what the living wage is.

STELLA 

That was really interesting. And I liked how you explained the breakdown. Because I think understanding how living wages are trying to be quite a holistic measure of what the type of wage necessary to live a good life is really interesting when you hear what is taken into account in that. 

And I love what you said that it’s really important for garment workers to be involved in that process, because at the end of the day, they’re the only ones who are going to know how much they need to be able to provide for themselves and their families and dependents in a sustainable way. So I really like how you broke it down.

ANNE

Yeah, I think what is tricky, actually for myself, coming from a European country, a Western European country, I think a lot of us there think about minimum wages in that old way, right? The way that it was originally meant. And I think for garment brands, often coming from those same countries, I think they regard minimum wages mostly as a legal requirement. 

So for them, it’s all about abiding by national laws, which means that being the legally mandated minimum wage is enough. They’re not violating any laws; they’re not breaking any rules. 

So that’s also why very often you’ll see that in brand sustainability reports or other publications that they put out, they will report quite proudly about the fact that they’ve paid 100% of their workforce the local minimum wage.

Which completely you know, they seem to be forgetting or ignoring that the minimum wage in those countries have been kept at a poverty level, basically on to attract their investment. 

So I think that’s really tricky, and therefore, it’s really important that people understand the difference between a minimum wage and especially what a minimum wage might be in your country where, you know, a minimum wage might actually be at the living wage level.

But in most garment production countries, if there is a minimum wage, it’s not a living wage level. So I think that’s really important to realize.

STELLA  

I agree. And I think that that context is so important for brands to look into, because it differs so much from country to country. And even like you were explaining about the food basket, food costs and cost of living differ so much from place to place. 

So really wanting to take the time to understand those differences is such a key part in this process. And I love how you explained that. I think that there is so much around brands trying to avoid these conversations and topics and just trying to scrape by with the minimum requirements like you were saying with the law.

And that’s probably another really great reason why, advocating for living wages to be incorporated in legislation, as we’ll talk about a bit later is really important at this stage. 

So one thing I wanted to touch on, as on the topic of brands, avoiding responsibility to an extent is this complex use of subcontracting agreements, that often obscures responsibility and helps brands to, in a way, avoid taking responsibility for paying living wages.

And I was just wondering if you could share a bit about how these complexities make it easier for brands to avoid taking responsibility — and then whose responsibility should it be to ensure that living wages are paid?

ANNE 

Yes, I think you’re right, that subcontracting indeed is a very big issue in the industry. Probably also in other industries. And this issue is, of course, very much related to the lack of transparency in the supply chain. 

So that means that us as consumers are not really able to know for sure where the products that we buy in the shop, where they’ve been made, by whom, how much these people were paid, and all of that.

I’m really not an expert on subcontracting issues. But basically, it comes down to the fact that when a brands place an order, it sometimes it’s not produced by the supplier that the brand has a contract with, but sometimes by a factory that is owned by the same company, or it might be that this other factory is are owned by a family member of the original supplier. 

So it’s very illegal and behind the scenes. And oftentimes, these factories — so the subcontracting factories — they don’t always have an export license. So that means that for example, they also won’t be audited by big auditing firms.

And I also really don’t mean to suggest that audits of exporting factories happen in a very good way, or give a very realistic view of what’s happening in that factory. Especially if you think about Ali Enterprise, for example, a factory in Pakistan that burned down completely to the ground. And that factory was audited just a few days before that happened.

So I’m not saying that auditing is, is the best. But what we hear from our partners — so unions on the grounds in production countries — is that subcontractor factories, what’s happening there is just really not okay. 

So these factories, the subcontracting factories, often do not appear on supplier lists that brands publish. Workers who work in these factories often do not know what brands they are producing for. 

And also, subcontracting is often not visible on shipping information that we can find. So there it will simply say because there we have the contract information. So they will simply say that an order came from the factory where the brand placed the order. 

So yeah, it’s very hard to detect. And that’s why this still remains one of the biggest issues in the supply chain because also brands do not always know, for sure, if an order was actually made in the factory where they thought they placed the order. 

At the same time, Clean Clothes Campaign thinks it’s still unfair for brands to blame suppliers for low wages. I think I said that earlier during this interview that brands really have pushed the price of production so low that suppliers can really not afford to pay workers a living wage. Because brands will only choose suppliers that commit to really fast [production] and really low pricing, which places a lot of pressure of course on working conditions.

Since brands are on top of the supply chain, they should ensure that they pay their suppliers enough to enable them to pay living wages to their workers. So I think a very good first step for brands would be to really understand how much more they would need to pay in order to make this possible. 

So then again, we go back to pricing that we talked about earlier. A brand should really understand how much time does it take to produce one piece of this product that I’m ordering? And then how large is my order? So how many minutes in total are needed to make this order, and then see how much is a living wage so that you can determine what one minute of labor would cost. 

Then make sure that you pay this price to your supplier, so the supplier can pay workers a living wage. This is really the responsibility of brands. Also, if you think that, think about the fact that brands are producing and selling more clothes than ever. 

Like this number is still increasing and increasing year after year, and are making huge profits even during the pandemic, I think there’s absolutely no one else responsible for paying workers living wage.

STELLA 

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think like you said, it’s almost the brand that has to set the precedent for a lot of the actions that take place in the rest of the supply chain. Because at the end of the day, they’re the ones deciding the cost of the garment, and how many corners they’re going to cut to get there. So I definitely agree that action needs to come from brands. 

And I think that’s why they’re also struggling to get action because of how many as we discussed earlier, how many ways they try to avoid responsibility. 

In your experience, what has been the most effective way been in to hold brands accountable to pay a living wage? Without also jeopardizing the lives of workers, because I know that’s also a big risk in this kind of work and advocacy?

ANNE 

Yeah, you’re right, that’s definitely a large risk, I think. Well, currently, it’s very difficult to hold brands accountable to pay a living wage. And that is simply because I think we mentioned that earlier already. There is a lack of a legislative framework to put this in. 

Even though payment of living wage, or receiving a living wage for labor is a human right, it’s often not embedded in local labor laws, for example. 

So I would say legislation is one of the most effective means or would be one of the most effective means to hold brands accountable. Also, because it creates a level playing field because it would apply to all brands. 

ANNE
So like I said earlier, brands currently do not feel like they are violating any rules, if they’re not paying a living wage. You cannot really take brands to court, if they’re not doing that. 

ANNE
Plus, you know, no brand is doing that. So why should one brand do it? You know, that’s a little bit how they feel. 

ANNE
And I think, this is really not an issue only with regards to wages, but also in other areas like safety in the workplace. So really, when you think about it, it’s insane, that it’s still possible for companies that are worth billions of dollars to operate in unsafe factories in small back streets in Dhaka or wherever. 

What is interesting is that there are more and more brands who publicly state that they are committed to paying a living wage in the future. Sometimes in the near future and sometimes in the very, very far future. But more often than not, they really don’t have a very clear action plan. Or at least not a public action plan on how they want to achieve that. 

So very often, then, when we ask brands about this action plan, they often say that they get stuck in endless discussions about what a living wage is, how much it is, or how they should deal with situations in which they are not the only buyer in a factory. 

These brands are hardly ever the only brand buying from a specific factory. Therefore they argue that sector-wide measures are needed instead of individual brands’ action. I think that might actually be one of the very few things that CCC agrees with. But we still think that individual brands can make a difference. 

But yeah, I think brands will likely not take action if they don’t feel like they need to because of course it costs money to pay workers a living wage. Don’t worry, though, this is definitely something that brands can afford. 

But yeah, if they feel like no one cares, like if they feel like consumers don’t really care about how much they are paying their workers, then I don’t think it’s very likely that they’ll take action. So yeah, I think the first step would also be that we’ll show that we care. 

STELLA 

Yeah, I completely agree and think, am I correct in saying that there are no big, like fast fashion brands that are currently paying living wages? 

ANNE

That’s correct. There are maybe a few small brands that are paying a very small percentage of their workforce a living wage. But none of the big fast fashion brands that you will be thinking of are doing that. 

There are brands that, for example, I remember that H&M, a few years ago in their sustainability reports, I forgot the exact claim but they claimed that in Bangladesh, they had paid all their workers a specific percentage more than the minimum wage. 

Which again, if you’re coming from that sort of a Western or European perspective, then you’re like, oh, more than the minimum wage that’s really good. And I’m not saying it’s not good, because anything closer to a living wage obviously is better than less. 

But if you think about the fact that in Bangladesh, the minimum wage only gets revised once every five years. So that means that inflation is quite high year after year, that actually the purchasing power of workers decreases year after year. 

And the minimum wage is so unbelievably low in Bangladesh, and then to imagine that it’s not just a worker who depends on that, but also her family, most likely or other dependents. 

And then to be so proud about the fact that you’ve paid workers, I don’t know, a few bucks more, I think that’s almost a little bit embarrassing, and really not something to be proud of as a  rich company who is making a lot of profit.

STELLA 

Definitely, definitely. Because the profits are still unbelievably high, there is no sign that those are going to be compromised. So it really is completely mind-blowing, that this still occurs.

But I think, on a slightly more hopeful note, as we were mentioning earlier, around what the promise of legislation, the role that legislation around living wages can play in just ensuring that brands are all held accountable and are held accountable in the same way is really important. 

And as you said also, we all have a role to play in that. Because if we don’t care, then brands won’t care, of course. 

So I think this is a really good time to chat a bit about the Good Clothes Fair Pay campaign, which is demanding living wage legislation across the garment, textile, and footwear sector. 

Could you tell us a bit more about this campaign, and also how you’ve collaborated with workers to co-develop global campaigns on achieving systemic goals, like payment of living wages? 

ANNE

Yeah, sure. So the Good Clothes Fair Pay campaign is tied to a European Citizens Initiative, which is a tool available to all European citizens actually, to propose legislation directly. 

So how this works is that you can hand in a proposal for specific legislation and once this is approved by the European Commission, you get one year to collect 1 million signatures from EU citizens. 

If you then succeed in that, then the commission has to have at least one meeting with the group that made the proposal to discuss the contents of the proposal. So it’s a very interesting kind of direct democracy tool. But yeah it’s very interesting that we’re trying it now. 

So our proposal obviously focuses on living wages for garment workers, and for all workers in supply chains of brands that are importing their products onto the EU internal markets. While the EU is one of the biggest importers of cheap clothing. Almost all garment brands are importing into the EU, so basically, all brands would be covered by our proposed legislation. 

In the legislation,m brands would be required to conduct specific due diligence regarding living wages. So they would be required to implement and monitor time-bound action plans on the payment of living wages. And if they fail to do so then the brand will be subject to penalties or fines. 

I realized that terms like due diligence or maybe a bit technical. But basically, it comes down to the fact that brands have to create a specific action plan, what I was referring to earlier on how they will ensure that workers in our supply chain receive a living wage. And then start implementing that plan, regularly update on how they’re progressing, and what issues they’re facing. 

In the legislation, we’re also asking that they base specifically a lot of attention to higher-risk groups. So women workers, migrant workers, home-based workers, and to make sure that, that they are also benefiting from this. If brands fail to do this, then yeah, because it’s binding, because it’s legislation, there will be a penalty or a fine. 

And then with regards to how we collaborate with workers, usually through unions, because workers are hopefully over represented by strong unions in their country. So actually, all the work that CCC does, originates from casework that we do. 

Casework refers to specific violations happening at the factory-level that are usually reported to us by unions that are members of our network. So, of course, most of the cases that are reported to us can largely be categorized in a few categories. Think about unpaid wages, unpaid severance, safety issues, issues related to gender-based violence, and so on. 

So the approach that CCC has, always actually had, is twofold. So on the one hand, we focus on this case work. So we work with the groups on the grounds. So hopefully resolve the issues that are happening in this factory. 

And at the same time, because we see the same kinds of cases happening again and again, we also often try to come up with a more systemic solution that will hopefully prevent the same cases from occurring again. 

So for example, this can be proposing specific legislation or binding agreements like the Bangladesh courts, or the binding agreement that we’re currently working on in our Pay Your Workers campaign. So usually we do these two things. So the case work and more systemic..

STELLA 

Amazing, yeah. I love that it starts at a grassroots level, and that the casework also allows you to really incorporate the experiences and lived experiences of garment workers in those factories

And I know that the Good Clothes Fair Pay campaign needs 1 million signatures, like you said. So I’m also going to make sure that we put the link to the website where people can add their signature in the show notes. 

ANNE  

Great, thank you. That would be great. And maybe an important side note to that is that it’s indeed EU citizens. So anyone with an EU passport so you don’t have to live in the EU, you can live outside of the EU as long as you have an EU passport.

STELLA 

That’s great. That’s a good note to include in there. But yes, I think even if we’re not EU citizens, we can all still play a role in the campaign in spreading the message. 

ANNE

Yes. 

STELLA 

And you touched on working with realistic and accurate data from the ground, on a grassroots level. And I was wondering, just if you could chat a bit more about this importance of transparent data on wages as a campaign tool and how this transparency really does influence accountability?

ANNE 

Yes. So yeah, I think I said this earlier already. But as a consumer, it’s impossible or almost impossible to know much more about where your piece of clothing is coming from, apart from the label in the back that mentions the country where the item was produced. 

So if you want to know more, like for example, where exactly, by whom your clothes were made, it’s very difficult to find out. But most brands nowadays publish a list of their suppliers. Still, not all brands are doing that. But most are.

So this means that if you see in your label that your jeans were made in Pakistan, you can usually find online a list of suppliers that the brands works with in Pakistan. But of course, this still doesn’t tell you much else. So you still don’t know, is this factory safe? How much do workers earn in this factory? Can workers join the union if they want to? How about maternity leave and maternity rights? These are all things that you don’t know. 

So a few years ago, we started working on a project called Fashion Checker, which is an online database in which we’re trying to collect two different kinds of data. So on the one hand, we’re serving brands, and we ask them about their transparency and living wage policies and standards. 

On the other hand, we interview workers about how much they earn and how many hours they work for this wage. And by combining this information, it becomes possible to see, okay, this brand is producing in that factory in Pakistan. Hey, and we also interviewed a worker in that factory, who says that they’re earning X amount of money per month. 

But it’s interesting, because this brand says that they care a lot about paying workers a living wage. But here when we asked the worker, they said that they only earned this. So then it becomes much easier to knock on the brand’s door and say you said that you care so much about being workers a living wage, but we spoke with a few of your workers in Pakistan, and they said that they are earning only half of a living wage, for example. 

So yeah, this really helps us in holding brands accountable. And also hopefully showing consumers that they really shouldn’t buy everything that a brand says.

Because obviously they have a lot of money to produce very shiny, and beautiful sustainability reports making lots of beautiful claims and promises. But I think this is really a bit of a warning for brands like don’t do that. 

Don’t say that you’re doing it, and then not do it. Because I think we will find out. Especially because as a CCC network, we have the ability to connect directly with workers on the ground. So we will find out you know.

So yeah either don’t make that claim — well actually do make the claim, but then also please live up to it and not..

STELLA 

Yeah, completely. And I think I’m so glad that networks like the Clean Clothes Campaign exist so that those kinds of greenwashing can be really uncovered. Because, like you said, even from a consumer perspective, it’s sometimes difficult to really be able to unpack and tell what claims are false and which claims aren’t. 

So having organizations like CCC, being able to do that work on the ground and measure up their claims to what’s actually happening is so important. 

I wanted to touch on one of the most common reactions I’ve heard when there are discussions about living wages. When we talk about living wages there has been a reaction that, won’t this mean that garment workers will lose jobs?

If they are paid more and brands don’t want to pay that money, and I was wondering how you respond to those kinds of comments, or what your take on it is?

ANNE 

Yeah. Well, I think first of all, this is already a much better reaction than another response that we often get. Namely, consumers wondering if they will have to pay much more for clothes if workers are being paid a living wage.

I think this really shows that people do understand a little bit how it works. Because I often get that reaction when I tell people where I work. And then people immediately feel the need to say, like, oh, yeah, I never shopped there. Or I will drastically reduce the amount of clothes that I buy, which, of course, has an effect on workers. Because if we all start buying less, and there will be less jobs, if we hold on to this model. And I think that’s where there’s a lot to win. 

Because I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that workers will lose their jobs as soon as brands start paying them a living wage. But this does require quite a drastic change. I think if we think about a slow fashion model where less clothes would be produced, but it would take more time to produce one item of clothing, this already means that you would still need workers because it just takes longer to make one item.

Also, in a slow and fair fashion model, workers should no longer be forced to work overtime, just to make sure that some insane order deadline is met. Because that’s currently what’s happening. And a lot of, especially women workers, feel the need to work overtime just to make a little bit of extra money. 

So if we think about a slower model, where workers already earn enough in a normal eight-hour working day, this also means that all the work needs to happen within these normal working hours. 

So that means that if the order is still the same size, a larger amount of workers would be needed to finish the order in time. So, really, I’m not so worried about the loss of jobs to be honest. 

At least I’m not more worried about that than continuing in the current sort of system, where workers are constantly trapped in a cycle of poverty and I think some people refer to garment workers as the working poor. And I completely agree with that. 

Workers are exhausted after working in this industry for just a couple of years. Because it’s insane what is demanded from workers in this industry. Many workers can really physically not keep up with the work in this industry for more than six, seven, or eight years, and then they’re completely done. 

So I think what we really have to be concerned about is how we make the jobs that we have. I think there are estimates about how many people work in the garment industry, I think they vary from 35 million to 60 million people working in this industry. 

So that’s good, right? That it creates jobs. But these jobs are really not good jobs. 

But I’m sure that if brands changed their business practices, and turned to a slower fashion model that people can keep their jobs because of those two things –  taking more time to produce one piece of clothing, and also, workers not working insane amounts of overtime anymore. 

So that means fewer hours available per worker to work on an order. That would be my take on that. 

STELLA 

Yeah, no, that’s a really good explanation. And I love how you described it, as well as the whole system that needs to change. Because when we talk about moving towards a slow model, it’s also about how we understand the fashion system and how we understand our relationships with clothing and the value that they hold in our lives. 

So yeah, I think the way you explained that in a holistic and systemic sense, makes a lot of sense to me. And I also think that it’s so important, again, to emphasize focusing on creating good jobs instead of just any jobs.

Because if we’re trying to create a more just system, it’s not just about creating jobs, it’s about creating jobs that help people to break out of those cycles of poverty and live lives that they are happy with and proud of and enjoy. So it’s about how we rethink the system as a whole. 

And I think that leads me on to my next point, which is often how environmental sustainability is seen at odds with social sustainability and worker rights. And we have touched on this a bit in the previous question. But do you think it’s possible to slow down fashion and bring fashion in line with planetary boundaries, while also creating sustainable livelihoods and paying government workers living wages? 

ANNE 

Yes, I think that is possible. Again, it would require quite a sort of drastic change. I’m going to steal a concept that one of my colleagues came up with a few years ago already, which she called Wages, Not Waste. 

And this refers to the fact that brands would need to make very serious choices if they were to pay workers a living wage. On average, I think current wages would need to triple in order to become a living wage. 

I explained very early on in this interview, that what we’re currently paying for labor is not a whole lot, but it would still be something to consider for a brand. Like how, how would we do that?

But if you think about it, in the current business model, brands are actually also spending money, or paying for waste. Because they make such big orders that are not based on any realistic figure or estimate. 

So they order in bulk, because that’s cheaper. But a really significant amount of these clothes is never sold, and goes to landfill, sometimes, almost directly. 

Storing clothes also costs money. Shipping them costs money. Burning clothes costs money. So if you think about that, all this money that brands are spending on doing all of that, if that money could somehow be used to pay workers a living wage, then that would be amazing. 

But for some reason, this seems too much of an extreme idea. Whereas the fact that clothes are being burned, or only worn once or twice is completely normal in the current system, which honestly blows my mind, if I think about it for longer than a few seconds. 

But yeah, I think it is possible to slow down fashion and think more about the environment. And I think, again, it comes down to pricing, right? Like decisions that brands make very early on in the process, like how much do we pay for labor? How many pieces of a specific piece of clothing do we actually need to order? Instead of currently only caring about everything being as fast and as cheap as possible? Because this has a gigantic impact on the planet and on the people who are involved in this production cycle?

STELLA 

Completely. And I think, what you are explaining, really also just drives home the point that we can’t think about environmental sustainability without ethics and without bringing in that social element. Because at the end of the day, even when we think about waste, those systems interact and have implications on each other. 

So, I completely agree that we need to think about both at the same time, and then also just shift our values around what we see as important in the fashion system. 

So on that note, I wanted to just pick your brain about if you could share some advice on actions we can all take to advocate for a fashion system that values the labor of common workers, and hopefully implements living wages.

ANNE

Yes, I think, yeah, I think it’s really important for consumers to realize that they matter for brands. I think if you have to name two groups of people that brands care about, it would be consumers and probably their shareholders. Because that’s where money is coming from, of course. 

So I think the best thing you can do as a consumer, first of all, is to be critical. And really wonder about where the products that you’re buying came from? Question what brands are saying publicly about their ethics and really demand from them that they do better. 

For example, by writing on their social media pages, or directly addressing them on Twitter with a question. If they start noticing that consumers care, and that they cannot get away any longer with certain practices in their supply chain because consumers are demanding that they do better, I think that’s a very powerful signal. 

On top of that, it can be very interesting to follow social media accounts. A great one that I follow personally is @ohsoethical. This is a great way to be reminded about what’s going wrong in the supply chain and also better understand what’s happening on the ground. 

A third one would be to sign petitions like ours. We quite often have a petition running. It’s a really small effort. So if you’d like you can also follow @cleanclothescampaign on Instagram or Twitter, where we usually share our petitions, and I think they do really make an impact. Of course, the more people sign, the bigger the impact. 

The last one, which is a bit more of an effort, and also, money would be involved. But I think if you really care, and if you have the ability, I think it might also be worth looking into critical shareholding. Which sounds a bit scary, I realize that because shares and shareholding might sound like something that is only for old white men. 

But I think as I said already, apart from consumers brands are also quite sensitive to what their shareholders think. So as a shareholder, they have a certain influence in that way. And there are numerous groups that are really into this, this ethical or critical shareholding. 

So if you do a bit of research online, then you can probably find groups who do this. Then you can work with them, for example, by buying a few shares and donating the shares to those groups, so they can go to shareholder meetings for you and demand in shareholder meetings, for example, that brands pay a living wage, things like that.

I think are a really good way to scare brands a little bit and to make sure that we’re very serious about this.

STELLA

Yes, those are really great options. And I have never actually heard about critical shareholding spoken about in the fashion industry before. So thank you so much for bringing that up. 

And it’s a really interesting way to think about changing the system also from the inside out and being in those meetings and having a presence in spaces where fashion brands care a lot about like what their shareholders think of them. So that was a great tip. 

And also just essential for us to also remember, even if we can’t be a part of the shareholding process, that there are so many options for us to engage in this advocacy and action work around challenging the way that the labor is valued, and that brands perceive garment workers in this industry. 

ANNE

Yeah, definitely.

STELLA
This conversation has been enlightening, because wages and the behind-the-scenes of how fashion work is often, works is often not spoken about as much as it should be and the intricacies of it.

So thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom on this topic. 

I have one last question to ask you before we end, which we ask every guest that comes on the podcast: what does a better future for fashion look like to you?

ANNE 

Yeah, I thought about this question a lot. And I really couldn’t come up with a less boring answer than this, which I think a few of your guests have already given the same answer.

But I think fashion just has to become a lot slower. In a way, I think the future of fashion would look a bit like what the past of fashion also looked like. So clothes of good quality that lasts longer than one season. Yeah to me that is a little bit what the future of fashion looks like. 

And of course, these clothes would be made by workers who are paid a living wage, work in safe factories where they have the freedom to join or form unions, and are not forced to work overtime. Yeah, this would be the dream and hopefully reality.

ELIZABETH 

And that’s a wrap for this episode. I hope that you learned as much from this conversation with Stella and Anne about living wages as I did. 

If so, please share this episode with someone else who you think might also get something out of it. And if you’re sharing it on Instagram, you can tag @consciousstyle and @cleanclothescampaign. We would love to know what you thought! 

Thank you so much for tuning in today. Don’t forget to hit subscribe or follow on your favorite listening app so that you do not miss any future episodes like this one.

And if you can’t wait for next Tuesday’s podcast episode, another similar episode that I might recommend is episode 11 on fashion activism with Ayehsa Barenblat, the CEO of the fashion advocacy organization Remake.

If you want more sustainable fashion educational content, you can subscribe to our completely free newsletter, The Conscious Edit at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. You’ll see weekly updates and recommendations for articles, podcast episodes, videos, events, and more. Subscribers also get access to a free 10-page list of sustainable fashion educational resources as a little welcome gift.

Okay, that’s all we have for you for now. I’ll catch you again here next Tuesday, or I’ll meet you in your inbox on Saturday if you’re a subscriber. Take care until then!

About Anne + Clean Clothes Campaign

Anne is the Living Wage Coordinator at the Clean Clothes Campaign. Clean Clothes Campaign (CCC) works to improve conditions and support
the empowerment of workers in the global garment industry. The CCC has
national campaigns in 17 European countries with a network of 250 organisations worldwide.

The post Living Wages for Garment Makers with Anne Bienias of Clean Clothes Campaign appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

That’s what we’re exploring in this episode with Niha Elety, a sustainable fashion advocate, designer, and the founder of Tega Collective.

Links From This Episode:

Tega Collective Website

Niha’s Instagram

Niha Elety’s previous podcast interview on cultural sustainability

Tega Collective’s feature in Vogue

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

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Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey, there and welcome or welcome back to the Conscious Style Podcast. Today’s episode is with another repeat guest, Niha Elety.

Niha was on episode 14 of the podcast in season one talking about the importance of cultural sustainability in fashion. And as a quick refresher, cultural sustainability is essentially maintaining culture, cultural beliefs, cultural practices — such as certain weaving techniques when it comes to textiles — so that they can continue to exist in the future.

And in that conversation in episode 14, Niha shared that she was in the process of creating a slow fashion brand, Tega Collective. And well now, that brand is launched! 

So we’re doing a follow-up episode going a bit behind the scenes of Tega Collective. 

Niha is sharing how Tega Collective is disrupting the power dynamics that we often see in fashion and is implementing co-creation and wealth distribution into their business model from the beginning. 

I not only learned so much from this conversation but ended it feeling super inspired as well.

So I hope that you also get a lot out of this conversation. If you do, please be sure to follow or subscribe to this show on your favorite listening app so you don’t miss future episodes like this one. 

And if you know someone else who might also get something out of this conversation, definitely share this episode with them! 

Okay, let’s get into the show. Niha is going to start us off here with a bit about her background and why she founded Tega Collective.

NIHA  

I am a sustainable fashion advocate on many social platforms. And I’ve always been a very visual person from a young age working on art and design growing up in both the US and India. And that’s really informed my education and my work when it comes to sustainable fashion advocacy, and how the different lenses in which I look at it through.

And that’s what I talk about a lot on my page. I focus a lot on heritage, in terms of the textiles, the way sustainable fashion is viewed, and how it’s created back in India. And so that’s sort of what sparked my interest in sustainable fashion in the first place. 

And then from there, in terms of starting Tega Collective itself, growing up to me, sustainability was not some new concept. When I heard about the word first it was more so a way of life and something that a lot of Indigenous cultures around the world think or is in or it’s really, truly embedded in their cultures right, around the world. 

And so, when I started Tega Collective that was very much the key to how we wanted to approach advocating for sustainability, especially since I am from India. There are so many communities, that Indigenous communities that are appropriated for their craft and their work. It’s stolen from, not just by the West, but from within India itself as well. 

Brands like Moschino ripping off Indigenous peoples’ clothing, especially the tribe that we’re working with now. They’ve faced a lot of appropriation from them. So that was sort of what sparked our interest in creating Tega Collective, which is truly a place where we want Indigenous communities to feel ownership of their crafts. 

And bring back a lot of that work to them, because clearly non-Indigenous people are creating their clothes and designs and so which has put them out of work for their own craft, essentially. So that was sort of the idea around it. 

A big thing for us is to go beyond just creating clothing, but to also rebuild essentially what we think of as a fashion brand, and sort of go beyond products. And making sure that the communities involved have a lot of agency, as well as profit sharing, since it’s their work.

Traditionally, in the fashion world, we see so many designers at the top with garment workers, essentially at the bottom of the hierarchies and not really having a stake in their own work. So that’s something that we truly believe needed to be different in the fashion industry and what we wanted to sort of start with our collective. 

But yeah, there’s so many different facets to dive into about Tega, and you know, excited to, I guess, tell you more as we talk about it.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, absolutely. I’m super excited to dive into all of the different elements of Tega Collective. And we focused a lot on cultural sustainability in fashion in our last conversation, which I’ll make sure that episode is linked in the description so people can listen to that one as well. 

But I wanted to kind of connect the dots and weave in that conversation to this one today a little bit. So can you share how Tega Collective is supporting cultural sustainability in the craft communities that you’re collaborating with?

NIHA 

Yeah, of course, for us, this was so important, and it’s a personal passion of mine to talk about cultural sustainability and fashion. Which I do on my page — promoting crafts everywhere. 

So for us, cultural sustainability really comes in two forms. One is definitely with the fashion and the craft and the practices that lead to creating the clothing that we have and then the other is the knowledge aspect. 

So for us when we collaborate with different craft communities primarily in the south of India and the Northeast. Which are regions that are not really amplified or not really known about as much globally, or even just given recognition within India itself. And so we just thought that would be the most important.

And I myself am from the south, so that was pretty important for me to include, and supporting these crafts communities to continue to create the crafts that they do. Because a lot of them, are put out of work for their own craft, and it was slowly dying away for a lot of these communities. 

And the first community that we worked with is the Lambani community, they’re located in Karnataka, and their tribe that is a nomadic tribe. They’ve been all over South Asia, but the group that we’re working with is primarily in Karnataka. 

For us, it’s important to truly collaborate and co-create with the artists and communities by highlighting their native fibers, traditional colors, handloom weaving, patterns, and symbols. So that’s sort of how we focus on cultural sustainability, is through each aspect of the process of creating the clothes.

Starting with, native fibers — what have they traditionally created their clothes out of? And what fibers are local to the bioregion as well, that they’re located in? I think that’s very key to producing and also fostering biodiversity, with the clothing that we create. 

Then when it comes to traditional colors and patterns, making sure that they’re incorporated, but obviously, in a way that they’re willing to share with the rest of the world to wear. That’s something that we’ve definitely tried to get the balance on.

And color is so integral to their culture, specifically. They are always wearing vibrant hues of so many different colors. And I think for them, it’s just really a freedom of expression and culture. So that’s something that was really core to us, as well. 

So in terms of knowledge, I would say, for the cultural sustainability aspect, Indigenous knowledge is really, really crucial for us to move towards for a better planet and a better future. And we wanted to go beyond just creating clothes. 

So we actually have recently partnered with an Indigenous Knowledge Center in northeast India, primarily in Nagaland, and they focus on Indigenous knowledge, folklore, oral stories, histories, sustainability practices. And so partnering with them to create articles and media for people to learn more about their culture. 

Every time we create with them, we make sure that they are paid. So that’s just something else that we wanted to incorporate and make sure that we’re truly hitting all the points that we want to.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, and there was so much there that I’m looking forward to diving deeper into. You mentioned co-creation. 

So, can you share a bit more about what that is? Like why is this model of co-creation with artisans rather than say, just giving them the blueprint to you know, just go off of and just sort of saying create this but actually working together to co-create the collections. 

Why is that so important? And how might that be different from how a brand typically works with artisans?

NIHA  

Yeah, yeah. You know, you put that very well I think a lot of brands very much just create a design that they think is trendy or that they or even a pattern that they’re interested in and kind of use that as a blueprint and tell whoever they’re contracting out the work to, to replicate it and send it back. So that’s typically how it goes.

And for us, co-creating is incredibly important. Because you know, this craft is the craft of the artisans. This is what they’re skilled in, this is what they have, what they’re experts in. On top of that, it’s their culture, right? Like, they’re the ones who understand it the best. And co-creating is truly the way that we wanted to go about it, and they wanted to go about it as well. 

So for us, the way we typically work with them is they had this goal of just wanting a lot more people to be wearing their creations. And so for them, they were interested in more modern silhouettes. And by modern, we mean clothing over time has evolved into button-down shirts, and so somewhat western silhouettes have become a bit more, I would say, common around the world, in terms of daily wear. 

And so they wanted to see how we could explore that with their current textiles and embroideries, and we thought that would be a great way to go about it. That way, many people would be able to wear the clothes. 

And so from there, it’s also really important to have a model of co-creation, because a lot of their embroideries and a lot of their designs have so much symbolism and meaning behind them, right? 

And so when you give an artist and just a blueprint of what you want, you might not know exactly what symbolism or meaning is behind a certain design. It might just look pretty to you. It might just have a nice aesthetic. But keeping that in mind is really key because it might just not work. Or it might not make sense. 

And I think that’s very key in India, especially because there’s so many motifs and designs around so many regional fabrics, and making sure that you’re getting the symbolism right is really key. So I think that’s another important thing to consider when co-creating. 

And so for us, that’s what we considered when creating the designs, and they did a lot of work with figuring out what they thought would resonate on each silhouette that we did. And then we decided to make it a bit more interesting. And a lot of our clothes have kind of wavy patterns on them with their embroidery. It was kind of a new style of embroidery that we came up with together.

So that’s just a little bit about one aspect of how we co-created but I think the best way is to just collaborate and talk about it and work with the people rather than telling them what to do, I think essentially.

ELIZABETH 

Right yeah, totally. Disrupting the power dynamics a little bit like I tell you what to do, and you follow orders and that sort of, like, dynamic that’s really, really rampant in the fashion industry.

Do you have any advice for other fashion brands that might want to explore doing something like this — engaging with co-creation with artisans?

NIHA 

Yeah, for sure. I think you definitely, you know when you’re reaching out to certain artisans, make sure to level set your expectations, and also ask them what their expectations are as well when you’re creating an order. Make it feel a lot less like a hierarchical, you know, kind of interaction. And I think that’s really key in terms of to truly create beautiful work, and truly put two minds together. 

And I would say listen to them, because that’s really key. Instead of just telling them what to do, there’s a lot of knowledge that they have and a lot of expertise that they have that you might not know about. I would say listening to them is really key. 

In terms of co-creating, please give them credit for what they’ve done and be transparent, as transparent as you can, about your work together. That’s what we did. We have a few interviews on our social media with the artisans and what they thought of the collaboration and their favorite colors, and how we incorporated them into the collection as well. 

And so we try to be as transparent about it as possible, and you’ll honestly get the best result. And if there are certain groups that aren’t willing to collaborate with you, then there might be a reason for that. But yeah, that’s just my two cents.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah and I like that you touched on credit, because that is something that yeah, I think is lacking sometimes in fashion. Its just a copycat industry. Fashion is constantly copying. And it’s sort of a bit like a free for all. Like, people feel like they can just if something’s out there, that they can copy it, and the credit is often not there. 

And something else that you’re doing a bit differently with Tega Collective is your wealth distribution model. So can you tell us about that, and what the fashion industry might be able to learn from your approach?

NIHA  

Yeah, of course. So for us, our wealth distribution model was very important in terms of changing the way a brand could work. As well as sort of dismantling the hierarchies that are typically in a fashion brand — like I mentioned before, with the garment workers and artisans kind of being there for the designer to create whatever they want. 

And so a part of that is through co-creation, and a part of that is through our wealth distribution, like you mentioned. And for us, making sure that they were shareholders, as well in this brand was a big part of that. 

So right now, for the first collection, on top of their payments for their work, they do have 15% in profit sharing, as of now. That way, they do have a stake in their own work and they are getting money beyond just what they have for the embroidery itself. 

And another 3% is also allocated for them to do what they want in terms of for land back initiatives. 

Since actually, I think I’m gonna mention this soon as well, but a lot of Indigenous communities right there, at least in India, they live in forests, this specific community lives on a mining belt. And so they don’t have the most safe conditions in terms of, like, there’s a lot of government coming to drill new oil wells or trying to cut down forests for other reasons, or even just create dams for water. Which is a common occurrence across the world. 

So just allocating money for them to be able to fight back is really key for us. And them too. So that’s another way that we are redistributing wealth too.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. And we definitely are going to cover that in a little bit like just the intersections of climate justice and people who are on the frontlines of fashion.

But continuing on this theme of sort of disrupting narratives in fashion, there’s been this conception, that slow fashion and sustainable fashion means wearing like all neutral colors, having a monochrome closet, minimalist silhouettes. And this aesthetic might resonate with some people, but it doesn’t necessarily equate to sustainability or slow fashion. 

And in Tega Collective’s feature in Vogue, you are quoted as saying, “for Indigenous communities, color pattern and embroidery are integral to culture, freedom, and self-expression.”

So can you speak a bit more to the role of color and patterns in these slow fashion ecosystems for craft communities in India and beyond?

NIHA 

Yeah, of course. I think something that is common across a lot of Black, Indigenous, and even people of color cultures across the world is the role of color and pattern in our dress. And this is something that I’ve talked about before but essentially I guess due to colonization, shared imperialism, the effects of that across the world. There was a lot of, I would say, maybe like looking down on people of color for wearing bright colorful clothing, that was something that was very common, and it was considered gaudy and tacky. 

And it is still to this day, especially with trends going in and out and we’re seeing so many closets like minimalistic closets of like beiges, and whites and black colors and things that are just very neutral and that at least for people of color, that’s not something that was actually traditionally in their wardrobe. Our clothing was traditionally very, very colorful. 

So for me, that’s something that I’ve always felt growing up. But I would say for these communities specifically or the communities that we’re working with, they have never really kind of let go of their culture. They’ve always been incredibly colorful with their clothing. 

For them, they always ensured that their homes were colorful like all of their walls, I don’t know. If you all go to Tega Collective, you can see the kind of homes that the artisans lived in. They’re very vibrant. And they don’t really subscribe to modern-day monochromes and minimalism. 

So our current fear of pattern and colors is mainly due to the need to aspire to the global standards of what is considered wearable and modern right?

People think it’s easier to pair neutrals together. But something I will say is lately within I would say maybe 2021 I’ve seen a lot of people, at least on TikTok and things like that, just wear a lot more colorful clothing and be a little bit, that term sustainable maximalist. 

So wearing colorful clothing and getting them from thrift stores and just being like showing people that you don’t have to have a closet with a bunch of the same color to be able to put together beautiful outfits. And that’s something that I’m really excited to see taking the stage recently. 

So I think for craft communities, it’s exciting to see people embrace color. And I think it’s key because for me, at least for me, it’s truly going back to my roots and kind of decolonizing my mind and my closet when I do pick out pieces for myself to wear. 

And yeah, it’s truly key in a lot of our natural dyes that we use and the way we create our textiles in India, color has always been there from the beginning. So I’m hoping to see a lot, a lot more of that because at least recently, maybe two or three years ago there’s just been a lot of…

For a lot of people in South Asia, red is a traditional color that we, that brides wear. But within the last few years, there’s been so many brides just wearing beige lehengas or white lehengas. And it’s just interesting to see that.

But people are aspiring right to that global standard of what is wearable and what is considered chic and classy. So it’s truly important to kind of question that and hopefully we can embrace traditional colors and colors and patterns as something that is considered cool and not tacky.

ELIZABETH

Mhm. Yeah, and I’m with you about seeing, especially on social media, more and more color in the slow fashion, sustainable fashion, conscious fashion community. And I think that has been a result of the whole idea of slow conscious fashion expanding, right?

And our idea of what that even is has grown, I think. And it’s moved beyond like, okay, you have to buy from these pre-selected minimalist brands. And it’s transitioned more to love what you have in your closet. Yeah, go thrifting — and there are endless colors to be found at a thrift store, of course. 

And, yeah, I love to see that. Because if we just go off like an aesthetic of slow fashion, right, like, there’s just this aesthetic of monochrome and neutrals. It’s very easy for say, fast fashion to co-opt that aesthetic. And I’ve literally seen that. 

Like fast fashion brands advertising, their “timeless” clothing and it’s like all beige. But you know, was it made to last? Sure it’s a timeless design, but did you actually make it in a way that will be timeless? Like will that still be around after a few washes? 

And not to mention, obviously, the impact on the environment on people along the way as well. But yeah, I think it’s just so limiting if we just go off of the look of a product to determine if it’s like sustainable or slow fashion. 

NIHA 

Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think that brings up another thing. Like you said, like you know people, it’s very easy for them to co-opt an aesthetic, especially fast fashion. 

But I also do think it was a big barrier for adoption, too, for a lot of people to be moving towards sustainable clothing. Because especially for the ones that do love color. They just didn’t enjoy the way slow fashion looked. And fast fashion had what slow fashion didn’t at least in terms of the color and the different styles and whatever was available. And so I think that was… it’s interesting, because it’s a barrier to adoption, but also something that can easily be co-opted.

ELIZABETH

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great point.

And actually had a question for you about this like greenwashing in the fashion industry. Because something I found super interesting that you wrote on Tega Collective’s website was “products cannot be sustainable, but practices and relationships can?”

Could you explain the statement further? Because I found it super, super fascinating. Like how can practices and relationships be sustainable, or even regenerative?

NIHA 

Yeah, of course, I do feel like we hear a lot of products are sustainable. Like our t-shirt is a sustainable t-shirt. But a lot of the time we don’t know what that really means. And it’s so easy to kind of greenwash and be caught up in that and think that this is a sustainable product. 

But it’s also important to sort of reframe and understand what sustainability truly is. Because the word itself sustainable means to be able to kind of maintain something or make sure that being even regenerative is going beyond that, and making sure that you’re giving back more than you take, instead of just sustaining what is there. 

But in essence, I guess what I was trying to get with that statement is, a piece of, like a T-shirt itself can’t be literally sustainable, right? Like a t-shirt itself is not sustaining something, you know. It is a product at the end of the day, but the practices that you use to create that t-shirt, and the practices that you use to engage with their artisans, and create mutually beneficial relationships with them, and making sure that you are thinking about native biodiversity when you’re choosing the fibers that go into your clothing beyond just what is the most sustainable fabric because there truly isn’t one right? 

Based on the different regions of the world, whatever grows there naturally is going to be the most sustainable fabric of that, or the sustainable fiber of that region, right? So not really thinking of the product itself, but thinking about the practices that it takes to create them, thinking about the practices that you put into your business, into your supply chains, into the people that you work with and making sure that they’re all truly mutually beneficial.

And going beyond just being okay. But just, truly being healing for everyone and everything in the process as much as you can. I think that’s what I was focusing on there and what I, you know, we hope to continue to create and foster at Tega Collective as well.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s a lot to sit with. And I’m definitely going to be reflecting on that in the coming weeks. I love that approach. 

And also really appreciated what you said about the context of the fibers and also maybe like the dyes and other elements of a garment. Like, fashion is so obsessed with finding the latest and greatest material and like figuring out which one is the most sustainable, and there was this whole, like, controversy with the Higg index. 

But I guess there’s this oversimplification of what a sustainable material is, when it actually is so specific to the area. I think like when a lot of that debunking of the data around cotton came out from the Transformers Foundation. 

And they were talking about, like, how you can’t say that it requires X gallons of water to make a cotton t-shirt, because it depends on where that cotton was grown. And also, water moves through a cycle. It’s not like necessarily that water was wasted, right? It’s all part of like, if the water came with rainfall, and it wasn’t irrigated, that’s not an unsustainable use of water. 

There’s just so many layers to consider. And we just always want this like quick fix, or this like ultimate sustainable fabric. Perfection! This like quest to have this like one answer that we can just apply across the industry in a broad stroke — and it just kind of misses the point.

NIHA

Yeah, I completely agree. There is so much oversimplification in the solutions that we have. And I feel like everyone just wants one thing. And we don’t realize that a lot of our solutions need to be decentralized and need to be localized to the regions that we’re working with.

And that’s the I mean, at least in my perspective, I feel like that’s the only way to go about it. Especially when it comes to things like fashion. They’re so region-based, and it’s really key to understand that.

ELIZABETH 

Mhm. Yeah, decentralization, for sure. 

So, going back a little bit to another topic that you touched on with kind of the intersections of those at the frontlines of fashion, with climate justice.

You know, the burden of the climate crisis, and also, the ecological destruction associated with things like fossil fuel extraction disproportionately falls on communities in the Global South, including many countries that make the majority of the world’s clothes, such as Bangladesh and India. 

So can you speak specifically to the area that you’re working in? You know, what are artisans experiencing currently with the climate crisis and ecological destruction in the area?

NIHA 

Yeah, yeah, sure. I think this is really important. Especially since a lot of people falling within these, these job roles are typically on the frontlines, and the ones that disproportionately face the climate crisis due to the resources that they have available as well as the way they’ve kind of been set up by the government and by other countries as well, right? 

For example, in Bangladesh and India, with a lot of garment workers who have created the clothes, those same clothes end up back in their backyards from donations in the Global North, which are the same clothes that they’ve probably made at some point. 

And so seeing that, that’s one huge thing that happens. A lot of waste being brought back to them, which is not even waste that they’ve produced.

And specific to the community that I work with, and in the south, they work or they live near a mining belt. So there’s a lot of iron ore dust and whatnot that even has come into our clothes sometimes. Like, there will be iron dust on our clothes that we’ve created, and we definitely make sure to wash it out.

But, it’s just very hazardous to their health, and quickens the deterioration of their health. And so that’s one of the major things that they’re experiencing, as well as right now. It is monsoon season in India. So all over India, it’s been very, very heavy flooding and very, very heavy rains, I think more than we’ve seen in the past. And it’s already been pretty deadly in the past. 

And so, this is the case for them, too, they have a lot of rainfall right now. So there’s just a lot, right with heat waves, and rainfall, and a lot of mining going on near them. 

So that’s the other reason why we did set up the fund that we did for them to be able to protect themselves as much as possible and being able to adapt with a lot of the changes that are happening around them with the climate. 

And I think, truly reparations from other countries, to countries that have so many people that are in vulnerable positions like this is really key in terms of finding a solution and being able to give people the resources to adapt to the climate that’s changing.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah It’s just so much. So much of the burden is placed on these communities and like that are already, like a system that has been so exploitative, and sort of contributed to putting them in vulnerable positions, and then like, sort of, is interconnected to things like the climate crisis, which then is further compounding these vulnerabilities. 

It’s just so —  it’s like a lot to sort of, like untangle. But I think that honestly, the only way that I think it makes sense moving forward, is eco-reparations. Or you know like the countries that have contributed most of the climate crisis, compensating the communities that are facing the brunt of it. 

But to shift gears a little bit, you are a vocal advocate for highlighting ancestral knowledge in sustainability. So what do you think that fashion should learn from Indigenous knowledge, traditional knowledge, and how can the fashion industry incorporate this knowledge in an equitable way that isn’t tokenistic, or maybe even getting into exploitative territory?

NIHA 

Well, I think definitely, in terms of what fashion should learn from Indigenous wisdom is a lot of what I’ve talked about today is that there is no one solution. You can’t look at things sometimes individually. You kind of have to look at things holistically and how there are so many layers to two different things. 

For example, working with natural fibers or natural dyes, how Indigenous communities have fostered, regenerative agriculture systems for generations around them. They’ve always only taken what they needed, not overconsumed.

And beyond that actually have healed and given back to the earth and especially with the agriculture that they foster. That’s just one example. But there’s so many different things that you can learn from Indigenous wisdom. 

But basically it’s it’s all connected everything that we do and we can’t isolate things sometimes. I feel like we live in this world where sometimes it’s easier to understand something if you isolate it, but we need to understand that that’s just not how the world is. 

It might help you understand it on its own. But you need to think beyond that and look beyond that. And so I think Indigenous wisdom truly draws from that. 

In terms of how the fashion industry should incorporate this knowledge in a way that’s equitable and not tokenistic. You know, reach out to the communities that you want to learn from. And make sure that you are — I mean, there’s an incredible, I’m not sure if anyone has heard about it, but it’s called Cultural Intellectual Property. 

They are a group that always talks about the three C’s, which are credit compensation, and I’m blanking on the 3rd C at the moment. But it’s really important to give compensation and credit to these people that are providing you with this knowledge. 

Also make sure that if they’re not willing to share something, to respect that, it is just for them. That’s what we’re trying to do, at least our best at Tega collective is amplifying Indigenous knowledge on our platforms and our media, and paying them for it. And making sure that this is something that they’re proud of and excited to do. So yeah, I would say that’s, that’s what, that’s my advice.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, I love that. You mentioned the Cultural Intellectual Property Rights Initiative, because Monica was actually just on the show. And that was episode 55.  Monica is the founder of Cultural Intellectual Property Rights Initiative. 

So definitely, that’s a great resource for any brands out there that are looking to co-create better with artisans. They have tons of like courses, they have an academy, and just lots of resources so that you can go into a relationship with artisans that is truly equitable and not tokenistic, or exploitative and just making sure that it is a positive experience for the artisans as well. 

So as we round out our conversation, can you share a bit more about Tega Collective’s first collection? And like the fibers, the techniques, and the dyes you used because I’m very curious to hear more about that.

NIHA 

Yeah, yeah, of course. So, in terms of the collection itself, a lot of the community, a lot of their favorite colors are kind of what we chose for the first collection. Their favorite colors were red and green and blue. And so that was kind of what we went off of.

And the colors ended up being a red, a periwinkle, and a matcha green essentially. And those dyes were created from local materials like madder root, and madder essentially produces deep red hues. Indigo for Periwinkle and a mix of marigold flower that gives a yellowish hue. And Indigo for the green, in terms of the natural dyes.

And for the techniques and fibers, we went with Kadhi, which is an indigenous cotton variety that’s found all over India. But for them, they use a lot of it in their clothes. Like all of their clothes are made from Kadhi. So we thought that would be great to go with for this collection. 

We also used Eri silk as well, which is a peace silk. And basically, it’s created without killing the silkworm. So that’s the other fiber that we used, we’re essentially using an indigenous cotton and a peace silk. 

Then in terms of the techniques, a lot of the embroidery that was done as well was created with the artisans. And there are so many different stitches that I don’t even know about. But there were about 14 main stitches that they use in their variety or in their repertoire, when they create the different geometric shapes which they draw from a lot of or a lot of the designs draw from plants or nature. 

And they use a lot of mirror work, and even cowrie shells and coins and things like that. So not only are the pieces very vibrant and intricate with embroidery, but they’re also adorned with mirrorwork and shells as well. So it’s just very beautiful and I’m very excited about our first collection.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, it’s beautiful. And where can people go to check out Tega Collective? And like see that first collection visually?

NIHA 

Yeah, of course. Well, there’s our website, which is tegacollective.com. So tegacollective.com. Our Instagram as well is @tegacollective and we have a Tik Tok page that we are just now launching, but that is also @tegacollective. 

ELIZABETH 

Amazing. And those links will be in the show notes as well. 

So as we close out our conversation, I have one final question for you. And, you know, ask every guest that comes on the show this question, and I asked you this question when you were on the show before, but maybe you have a bit of a different answer, especially in the context of Tega Collective.

So what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

NIHA 

I mean there’s so many ways to answer this from so many lenses. And I think last time I talked a bit about reparations to countries that house a lot of the waste from the global North’s donation clothes essentially and having them clean up that waste.

In the context of Tega Collective, right. I think I’ve mentioned a lot of it in this episode, but those three C’s: consent, compensation, and being able to credit as well. And truly collaborate with the people that you’re working with.

I think that’s so key in the fashion world, and that’s something that would create a better future overall, if we were to do that with not just Indigenous artisans, but with garment workers, and just everyone who works within a brand. And so I definitely think that’s key and that’s something that we’re trying to follow as well. 

But another thing is really looking to the communities that are facing the brunt of the climate crisis and making sure that as a brand, you’re doing what you can to either pay reparations or assist them as much as possible. Because you know a lot of the problems that we have today are from the fashion industry. 

So making sure that you’re cleaning up your mess, you’re giving credit to people, you are truly collaborating with them. And then also making sure that you are equipping a lot of the people from the regions that you’re probably sourcing your clothes from. You’re equipping them to deal with the climate crisis as much as possible. 

And I think that’s really key because a lot of brands just don’t work with the countries that a lot of their clothes come from, and it’s just really disappointing to see that.

ELIZABETH
And that’s a wrap for this episode! All the links mentioned throughout this conversation as well as the transcript are over in the show notes on consciouslifeandstyle.com.

If you have any takeaways or thoughts about what we discussed today, let us know over on Instagram. You can find Niha at @nihaelety on IG and this podcast is at the handle @consciousstyle.  

And if you have thoughts on the podcast so far in general, it would mean so much if you took a moment to rate and or review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. These ratings really do make an impact as they help us get more amazing guests to come onto the show and share their insights with all of you!

Finally, if you’re looking for more conscious fashion educational content, you can subscribe to our free weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit. In this newsletter, I share resources like articles, podcasts, videos, advocacy campaigns, events, and/or brands to check out. You can sign up via the link in the episode description — if you scroll down on your app — or at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. 

Okay, that’s all I have for you today! I’ll catch you again next Tuesday for another episode or I’ll be in your inbox on Saturday if you’re a subscriber. 

The post Shifting Power Dynamics in Fashion with Niha Elety of Tega Collective appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Well, then this episode with Selina Ho, the founder and CEO of sustainable fashion consultancy Recloseted is for you!

Links From This Episode:

Recloseted’s Launch Resources

The Recloseted Handbook

Conscious Fashion Collective Job Board

Submit A Job Posting

Chanodil Sourcing Platform

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

Green Eco Dream, a sustainably-minded marketplace with eco-conscious alternatives for your health, home, beauty, and on-the-go needs.

Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey there and welcome or welcome back to the show! In today’s episode, we’re bringing back a previous guest of the show, Selina Ho, the founder and CEO of Recloseted, a one-stop consultancy for sustainable fashion. 

In episode 42, Selina shared tips for how existing fashion brands could transition to more sustainable practices. In this episode, Selina is going to share her tips for launching a new slow fashion brand from the ground up.

And yes, even if you don’t have a ton of resources or funding or a formal degree in fashion, Selina is sharing how you can actually get a brand started.

And even if you’re not an aspiring slow fashion entrepreneur, I think that this episode will still be really interesting for you. I know that I found it fascinating to get a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to launch a slow fashion brand — and some of the areas where that differs from a fast fashion brand.

That said, if you do know someone who is interested in launching a slow fashion brand or is in the process of launching one, please send this episode their way! Selina is sharing really valuable insights that might just save them time, money, and a few headaches.

Okay, now let’s get onto today’s show!

ELIZABETH 

Thank you so much for coming on the show, Selina. I’m excited to chat with you and have you on the show for round two on the Conscious Style Podcast.

SELINA 

Yeah. Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for having me. I’m so excited to be back and really excited to share more knowledge with your community. 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. So, in part one, I guess, so the first time you were on the show, we started with your background, and you know why you started Recloseted. 

But for this conversation, I thought we could start off with just giving a little bit more context to what we’re going to be talking about today, which is how to launch a conscious fashion brand. 

So, with the increasing interest in sustainable fashion, it seems like there are new brands popping up all the time, in addition to existing brands implementing more sustainable practices. Do you think that we really need more conscious fashion brands? And why do you have that answer? 

SELINA  

Yeah, I love that question. And I think it’s a question a lot of people have when they want to start a sustainable fashion brand, because there’s already so many brands out there to your point. And more and more greenwashing going on, so what is the best way to tackle solving this harmful fashion industry, right?

And I always go back to the fact that we were closed every single day, and people like touched these fabrics, they feel dumb, and it’s just inevitable, it’s a part of our lifestyle. That being said, though, things do need to change. And that’s where genuinely conscious brands come into play. 

And I think a lot of times, now, people are just starting businesses to start businesses. But if you’re truly intentional, and you think carefully about the types of products you’re releasing, and the problem you’re solving with it, that’s where there’s really opportunity. Like long gone are the times where you just make products for the sake of making products. 

So long story short, I do think there’s still room for genuinely intentional brands, if they are really strategic about it. And they’re smart about it, and they’re actually wanting to solve a pain point. And so that’s where the opportunity is.

And I really don’t think there’s room for fast fashion brands that are just trying to capture trends or just trying to make revenue for the sake of it. That’s just not what we need anymore. 

ELIZABETH  

Right? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that a common hesitation for someone who might want to create a slow fashion brand, or honestly, just any sort of sustainable business might be that, okay, there’s already so many and the market is too saturated. 

And so what would you say to that if people have fears that the market is too saturated? You know, what can they do?

SELINA  

Yeah, so the first thing I want to point out is that every industry at this point is “saturated”, there’s competitors in every single space. So instead of letting that bog you down, or making that feel like you can’t do your own thing, I think you should look at it as an inspirational piece instead. 

And so really think about your ideal customer and what they need. I talked about this a little bit already. But what are pain points you can solve, what are problems you can really solve for them and stand out in that regard, and really differentiate yourself that way.

Because people can really tell when you’re speaking directly to them, and you genuinely care about them. And that’s really how you can stand out from your competitors as well. 

And I touched on this a little bit already, too, but you want to create products that people actually use. Because even if you created the most sustainable sweater in the world with the best materials at the best factory, at the end of the day, if people aren’t using that sweater and it’s just going to landfill, you’ve just made sustainable junk, right?

Like it couldn’t be the most sustainable sweater ever, but it’s just sustainable junk at the end of the day. So set yourself up for success and set yourself apart from your competitors. You need to be really strategic about what you’re producing and how you’re going about it. And I really think that will help you stand out.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, that’s great advice. And I think another barrier for people that maybe want to launch a sustainable fashion brand is that they don’t have a formal education or they don’t have a fashion degree. They didn’t go to school for it. They don’t have, you know, a fashion design education. 

Can someone who doesn’t have this formal education or degree still start a fashion brand?

SELINA  

Absolutely. I would say don’t let that hold you back. A lot of our clients don’t have a fashion or even a business background and they’re still really successful. But the key though, is you need to have a willingness to learn and you need to be curious. That’s really important. 

And then the next part is of course, like finding and hiring experts to help you. So if you don’t have a fashion design background, you’re obviously not going to be designing your first collection. That just does not make sense. So find someone amazing, hire them, trust them. And that’s how you’re going to go about it. 

But my biggest piece of advice is just have that willingness to learn and soak up everything like a sponge, ask questions, don’t be afraid to ask questions. And yeah, I really do think though, you should not let a lack of experience or background hold you back from starting. Because everyone started exactly where you are now. Like every single entrepreneur or person you look up to started from zero. So you just need to put in the work and understand that you can get there as well.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, and that sort of reminds me of something that I have to continually tell myself, it’s okay to be a beginner, it’s okay to be bad at something when you’re starting. Because I feel like sometimes that might hold us back in any sort of entrepreneurial venture and just in life, you know, just being nervous to start something. 

Because, yeah, you’re probably going to be bad at it at first, or like, at least not know, much. But like, how will you ever know more about that topic, or get good at something if you don’t start? 

And so just coming at it with, I guess, a bit of humility that everybody starts as a beginner. And yeah, just being open to learning. So I love that. 

And you mentioned, bringing on other people onto your team if you don’t have that expertise. So if somebody wanted to find a designer, how would they go about that?

SELINA  

Yeah, great question. But before we get there, maybe just touching on your previous point, I often say too, like if your final product be it your first social media post, or your first collection, if it’s perfect, that probably means you waited too long to start. 

ELIZABETH

Mhm.

SELINA

And I’m not saying that you should be launching with all these mistakes and mishaps. But if you wait too long sometimes and you hold yourself back until you’re 100% ready, usually too much time has passed by. 

So just like you said, there’s going to be things that happen, you can’t prevent them. That’s okay, things will not be perfect. And that’s okay, you just have to start. And then you can learn as you go. And that’s what a lot of people do.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, I love that. And something else sort of related to that, that I’ve heard is like, if you look back, and you’re not embarrassed by what you first put out, you haven’t grown. 

And that was also very encouraging for me, because I like will look back at old blog posts that I wrote five years ago, and really like, Oh, my God, I’m cringing so much. But that just means that you’ve grown and you’ve learned and that’s good, it’s a sign of growth. So…

SELINA  

Totally, yeah. And then in regards to finding a designer, this is really important. So for our clients, we warm intro them but for your listeners, they’re really going to have to do their due diligence, because you want to make sure you find and hire the best people for you, because they’re literally making your products that your customers are going to be wearing. 

So the first thing is really just to cast a wide net. And I would just gather a list of people that you can work with. And we always tell folks to start with the pattern maker, because the pattern maker is usually the first step and conceptualizing your designs. 

And for people that don’t know what pattern making is, essentially, if you have a sketch of a shirt you want, for example, the pattern maker will help you conceptualize it. So they’ll turn that 3D product into a 2D pattern with usually paper. And so there’s going to be like little paper pieces, and then they’re going to show you how it can come together to make your shirt. And so that’s usually the first process. 

And if you concentrate on finding the pattern maker first, they typically have people they work with for grading, which is changing your sizes or making your size range, they have people to make your final tech pack. And so I generally recommend starting with a pattern maker and then going from there. Especially if you find a great one, they’ll also likely be working with great people, right? So start with the pattern maker. 

And in terms of actually being able to find people and casting a wide net. Literally, just be very resourceful. So use Google, use Facebook groups, ask for referrals. Just ask around and don’t be shy about this. And then once you have that list, you then want to narrow it down and you want to vet people. 

So think of it literally as an interview. Ask questions about what they specialize in, ask for portfolios, ask for samples of work, ask for references, and of course price points, what their process is, lead times, all that stuff. 

And the other things throughout this whole process too is to really trust your gut. Because if someone doesn’t feel like they’d be a great fit for your brand or something feels fishy, don’t ignore that because chances are there’s a reason why you feel that way. 

And I know sometimes it can be hard to listen to your gut because it’s not really a science. It’s an art form, but really when it comes to finding designers and people you want to work with and especially with manufacturing, that’s really, really important. 

Yeah, so I can’t stress this enough to your audience, really do your due diligence and spend the time and the effort required to find someone perfect for your brand.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, and I just want to quickly share a resource actually. So for anybody who is like looking to hire in the conscious fashion space, over on Conscious Fashion Collective, we actually have a job board. 

So these are like job openings: this is like freelance, contract, full-time, or internships. So I will put that in the episode description, the email that you can reach out to with your job opening, and we’d be more than happy to post that up on our job board over at consciousfashion.co. So that is a resource for anyone who wants to launch a brand. 

But going back to some of the other barriers that someone might face in trying to launch a brand, I think that two of the biggest challenges that are probably unique to sustainable fashion brands are sourcing eco-conscious materials, and secondly, trying to find ethical manufacturers.

What are your tips for those challenges?

SELINA 

Yeah, this is huge. And it’s really similar to my tips with finding a designer. But again, like we warm intro our clients. And if you’re not in that situation, you have to do your due diligence, this is so important. 

And so same thing like cast a wide net. So Google, Facebook groups, referrals, and sourcing sites are really huge, too. So you just mentioned your job board. Amazing. That’s a great place to be. 

But there’s also sites like I don’t know how to pronounce this, I think it’s Chanodil but I can send you the link as well and Elizabeth can put it in the show notes. But it’s essentially like a job board and it’s really just for males and for manufacturers. 

So brands can go on there and say, hey, I want to create a shirt made out of silk, I’m looking for silk fabric, please let me know if this is you type of thing. And then they’ll literally pitch. And that’s really helpful because you can then have inbound and you can look through everything. 

The one tip with the sourcing sites, though, is to try to be as specific as possible. So if you know exactly what you’re looking for, you know what types of minimums you’re able to hit. And you know, colors like just list all of that out so that people can self-select and then apply. And with that, as well, once you have the list of mills and manufacturers you might want to work with, you then of course want to go through a really rigorous vetting process. 

So I’m actually going to do a YouTube video on our YouTube channel. And I think it’s gonna be like 20 to 30 minutes long, so I won’t share everything, because that’s gonna be really gnarly for your listeners. But the cliffnotes edition is really asking them, you know, what do they specialize in? What are samples of work? What are your price points? What are your lead times? 

And just don’t be afraid to ask questions. And something I say too is if people get annoyed with the questions you’re asking, or if they think you’re asking too many questions, then that’s again, not a sign, you probably want to work with them, right? Because if they’re getting like that in the sales process, imagine what they’re going to be like when you actually work with them in production. 

So really take the time to do this. And I’m sure your listeners have heard similar horror stories to what I have heard around getting scammed or products coming back. And it’s not great. And this is not to scare your listeners, it’s more so just to stress the importance of taking the time to do this. 

And don’t be frustrated, if it takes you a few months to find the perfect material. That’s normal, especially if you’re not getting help. And again, don’t be upset if it takes you a few months to find a really good manufacturer as well. It’s really worthwhile to take the time to do this so that your products are set up for success.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, I love that reminder. And it’s interesting, sort of from an outsider perspective too. Like a slow fashion brand, it makes sense that also you have to be slow and intentional about who you’re sourcing from. 

Because when we rush things, we know that a lot of times you have to take shortcuts to get there. And at the end of the day that can come at the expense of the planet, and/or people, so that makes sense. 

And in terms of logistics, how many pieces would you recommend a brand starts off with for their launch? And how much would it cost typically, to launch a sustainable fashion brand?

SELINA  

Yeah, there’s a lot of different opinions out there. And this is just what I have seen work best with our clients. So if someone listening doesn’t want to do this, that’s fine. But I’m just going to share what works best for our clients. 

So in terms of how many products to release for your first collection, I always recommend one to two products. And the reason behind that is because you really want to make sure you knock this out of the park, right, for your first collection. You really want to make sure you go so well, your customers are so happy with their products, everyone’s raving about it. And so you really want to focus and narrow down on that one to two products. 

And I kind of touched on this before already. But we always tell our customers to take a customer-first approach and really nail down the target audience, understand the problem, and then make something with them. So you almost co-create that solution. And that takes time, which is why we always recommend one to two products. 

And you can always make more products in the future, but really focus for your first launch and really make sure it’s exceptional. And then once you have funding and your launch is really successful, you can then go and make more products for your future collections. 

And the thing too is if you start with one to two products, the beauty is you can likely just get one material. And that of course helps with cost savings. 

And so in terms of costs, I feel like this is something people don’t talk a lot about. And I don’t know why people won’t answer this question. I know it varies. I’m totally transparent, and I’m happy to share what we typically tell our clients. 

So generally, I would say you want about $30K. And this can be higher, or it can be lower, depending on how many products you’re producing and how complex the pieces are, as well. So there is of course nuance in this, but generally $30K. 

And before your listeners freak out, I am going to break this down and I’m also going to explain if you, if you don’t have that kind of money, like how you can get it. 

And so in terms of the 30K breakdown, there’s always four categories I run through with our clients. 

So the first one is business setup. So think like legal fees, think accounting, think subscriptions like these are just things you need to invest in to get your business off the ground. And generally, this could be about like $5,000, because you’re getting, you know, a lawyer to do your terms and conditions, your privacy policy, that kind of stuff. 

And then when it comes to your design and your production, this is usually where the bulk of the money goes. So the cost to actually design your pieces, get the material, and produce them. And this will vary depending on how many products you’re making and the complexity, but I generally ballpark around like 15 to 20K. 

Then the third category is your marketing costs. So setting up your website, any advertising, you’re doing, any influencer campaigns. And this, again, can vary based on how much you personally want to invest. If you want to launch completely with organic marketing, that’s totally fine. If you have some money for ads and influencers, that’s great, too. But generally, we tell our clients 5 to 10K here. 

Then last but not least are your development costs for you, as a founder, I think it’s really important when you’re first starting a business to invest in mentors and lesson programs. And so you can work with us, you can work with someone else, you can get a mindset coach, whatever you think you need. But I generally recommend, you know, another 5 to 10K here as well. 

So that all adds up to around 30k. But, again, there’s nuance, there’s variability. But just so people have an idea, right? Like, you’re, you’re probably not going to be able to start a brand for $0. But that being said, you can be smart about how you go about it so that you can make this happen.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, I appreciate all that information and transparency into the costs. Because I think that, not knowing these things, when you’re going in, you just can’t be as prepared. 

And, you know, there’s… there’s that risk of not being able to sustain yourself financially or get into a bad situation early on in your business and not being financially sustainable. 

So, with that cost, how would someone with a limited budget and or limited access to funding, you know, or maybe they just don’t want to seek outside funding? How would someone go about raising that money or funding?

SELINA  

Yeah, you bring up a really good point, I always talk about knowing your numbers. And I always want people to know, going into it, how much this is potentially going to cost because you don’t want to get sticker shock. And you don’t want to be in a situation where you — not accidentally, but you just unknowingly — have put all your life savings into this brand. And you’re not sure if it’s going to succeed, right? That’s just such a stressful situation to be in. 

So in terms of how to do funding with limited budgets, I always recommend to do self-funding, and then pre-sales. That’s what we tell our clients to do. I really don’t recommend getting angel investment or private equity or even bank loans, just because the time horizons for those types of investments are quite aggressive. 

Meaning that if they give you money, yes, it’s great. But they’re probably looking for a return in the next, I don’t know, one to three years and for a slow fashion brand, those timelines can be challenging and that’s just not a great situation you want to be in. 

And the other thing too is that when you do have to be a little bit more scrappy, I find that that’s really what builds great entrepreneurs because if you get a lot of money from an angel investor, or even private equity or whatever, it takes a lot of time to do that. But then once you have that money, I find that when problems come up, entrepreneurs just throw money at the problems to solve it instead of actually trying to figure out the root of the problem. So look at this as an opportunity to actually become a better entrepreneur for yourself. 

So a couple of things off the top, you know, be really smart about when you have to pay for things, I find that with the 30K, you don’t have to fork it up right up away, right? It’s not like we’re asking for a check for all of that. So be smart about when you have to pay for things. You can stagger it. 

Sometimes the things you don’t really have to pay for until you actually launch, such as your ad costs, your marketing costs. Even your lawyer like terms and conditions, you don’t really need that until you actually launch so you can actually plan for it and save up for it. So that can help. 

Then you also want to keep things simple with your business as well. Because simplicity really allows you to keep costs low, because once you add complexity, you’re gonna have to manage it, you’re gonna spend time on it. So just keep things simple, really similar to the one to two products I was talking about before. If you had a 10-piece collection, and you were stressed out and just think about all the materials you need to buy, right? So keep it simple. 

And then yeah, so with the self-funding and the pre-sales, how we go about it is usually for the self-funding piece, you’re going to leverage your savings, and or some sort of supplemental income. 

So if you are comfortable completely, just doing it off your savings, that’s amazing. But just want to make sure that you have boundaries, and you have a rainy day fund for yourself. 

And if you’re noticing that that’s still not enough, then supplemental income could be your nine to five job if you’re side hustling, or freelance or contract work, maybe you can get. And so that’s how you can approach the self-funding piece. 

And then the other part too is just looking at this, like you’re giving your business a loan. Because we always work with our clients to be able to pay themselves back as soon as possible. Because when they launch we try to help our clients make at minimum $20k. And so in that way, they’re only really just investing in their business for a few months, and then they get that money back. 

And then on the other side as well for the four costs that I previously outlined, the business setup costs, you likely have to self-fund. The marketing costs and developments, you likely have to self-fund. But for the design and the production piece, you can really leverage pre-sales for that. And that’s great, because that’s usually the bulk, if not like half of your costs. 

So yeah, you can do self-funding for that piece, and then pre-sales for the other piece as well. And then I know this is really long, but for pre-sales, my tips, we have four stages. 

So the first stage is to really market and build buzz and build your community. That’s so important. When you launch, you want to make sure there’s not crickets. You’re actually launching to a community of people that want to buy from you. 

And then the second phase is the actual launch phase for the pre-sales. And a really big mistake I commonly see people make is that they’ll keep their presale open whenever. And so that’s when you get one-off sales, and it gets really stressful to try and execute and fulfill. 

So we always tell our clients to keep their pre-sales open for two to three weeks. Meaning that it’s only during those two to three weeks, customers can actually buy something because I often find that if people think that they can buy something, whenever they’ll just be like, Oh, I’ll do it later. And then they forget about it. So there’s urgency with that. 

And then from a fulfillment perspective, what you can do at the end of the two to three weeks is you can then say, Okay, I have 50 orders, and then go to your manufacturer and fulfill. So the third phase is fulfillment. 

And then after that, you can go back to building your marketing and your buzz and then launching again. And so don’t feel like you just have to do your pre-sales once you can launch it every other month, if you want or whatever makes the most sense for you. 

But yeah, that’s generally how I would recommend being able to break down that 30K. And just know that, like I said, you don’t have to fork it all upfront, don’t have sticker shock! You can be really intentional and strategic about when and how you pay for everything.

ELIZABETH

Yeah. And there was so much there. I mean, I think that people might like back up and re-listen to that if you want to like take notes. That was really great. And yeah, of course, the transcript is available in the show notes too. 

But something I wanted to touch on is your tip on launching with just one to two products. So can you share a little bit more about that? 

Because I feel like some listeners might be thinking, only one to two products like I want to launch a whole collection. I have all these ideas. Why would I only put out one to two products?

SELINA 

Yeah, that’s a great point. And I find that people often have that reaction because a lot of people that want to start a brand are creative and they really want to touch and feel their products and stuff. So what I’m saying is that for your first collection, you can do one to two. But if you have an idea for an entire collection, that’s amazing, you can just put it on pause and just delay it for a little bit. 

And for your first product, if you can really knock it out of the park and build that trust with your customer, the next time you launch an add-on product, they’re going to be so excited, right? 

And even like a brand like Everlane, which is super successful now, they just started with perfecting T-shirts. And once they perfected the t-shirt, they now have like a whole collection of women’s wear and menswear now too, right? 

So really don’t look at it as you’re not going to be able to express your creativity or you’re not going to be able to put everything you want out there. I’m just simply telling you to delay it and be strategic about it. Because if you’re in a situation where you do launch with a 10-piece collection out of the gate, I find that the product quality — not all the time — but it’s kind of average for every single product. 

And then also you’re so stretched thin financially, because of all the materials, the designs, and the production, you’ve just done that sometimes that’s all you can afford, and then the brand fizzles out. And I don’t want that to happen to you. 

It’s actually in your best interest to maybe launch with, like your shirt and a pant or something like that. And then you can add on the jacket, then you can add on something else. And then you can build and really be sustainable financially with your brand.

ELIZABETH 

Mm hmm. And I guess something that I have a problem with, or something that I would struggle with is how do you pick which product? 

Should you pick the one that you think is going to sell the best? Should you pick the one that you, you know — do you ask your audience? How do you figure out of your 10 ideas, which one is the one to go with?

SELINA 

Yeah, with this, it really comes back to the customer first approach. So I always tell my clients, and when we work together to go out and get that market research and that data and talk to them. And then you really want to validate it. 

So you want to make sure that the product you release is the product that they’re most excited about. The one they’re willing to give you the credit card for and they’re just really jumping up and down and counting down the days until it’s released. 

So really, to answer your question, it’s the best seller piece is the piece that really solves a pain point and it’s going to add value. And then that way it can really set your brand up for success. Because if people… it’s almost like creating a cult following around your brand, right? You have this amazing product, you’ve knocked it out of the park. 

And now people are really intentional with your brand. They know about it. It puts your brand on the map. And then you have that funding and that visibility to then go out and launch other pieces as well. But yeah, be really, really, really selective with your first couple products and really make sure you know that they’re going to be best selling pieces.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, yeah. And your point about releasing a product that sort of solves a pain point, I think is really refreshing to hear that because it’s not something we hear a lot about with fashion, right?

It’s a lot of just creating things based on the latest trends, just because that’s what people are wearing on TikTok. Or just creating something simply purely because it aesthetically the designer likes it, which there’s nothing wrong with that — fashion can also be an art form. 

But I think that when we’re thinking about fashion for like the everyday person, for the masses, if designers thought more, if brand founders thought more about maybe some of the pain points people have, I think that really resonates.

Like I think about brands that have pieces that are designed for fluctuating sizes, you know, that’s a problem that many people struggle with. With clothing is like having to maybe have three different sizes at any one time because certain pieces only work at certain points in the month or the year or whatever. 

And so like that was a pain point, you know. And people I think really can build a deeper connection with brands that feel like they’re really solving a problem.

SELINA 

Yeah. And just building upon your point. If you think about it, for someone to give you money, or if you even think about you personally, the last time you bought something, it’s because you saw value in it. It either solves a pain point or it made your life better. And so it’s that same concept with your brand. 

And especially if you want to launch a conscious and sustainable brand and not create sustainable junk, like I was talking about earlier, like people really need to see value in it and use it. 

And sometimes when I talk about solving a pain point when it comes to clothes, people can roll their eyes and they can be like oh, it’s just fashion; it’s just clothes — like what are you even talking about?

But if you think about it at a deeper level, a client of ours was really targeting maternity wear and moms-to-be and new moms. And like you mentioned, the sizing fluctuates, right, between your entire pregnancy, nothing fits, you feel bloated, all this stuff. And so they created pants that were adjustable in a way that could grow with the woman as she was giving birth and after as well because your body continues to fluctuate. So that’s just one example. 

And I really encourage your listeners to find a target customer, they feel really passionate about helping, because once you have a group of people that you really resonate with, and you really want to help them and support them, I find that this whole process gets easier, right? 

Like is it the nine-to-five working gal that just has so many different things she wants to do, but she doesn’t want to have 100 different pieces in your wardrobe, so she needs versatility. Like is that the person you’re going after?

And really approaching it again from that customer-first approach so that you can create pieces that are sustainable products people use and add value to people’s lives. 

And, you know, as an entrepreneur, and as a founder that should make you so excited the fact that your products are actually being used and worn, you know?

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, definitely. No, that’s super inspiring. Because yeah, as you were saying, people might roll their eyes, think fashion is frivolous, or whatever. But we all wear clothes and frankly we have all faced challenges, I think either with shopping or wearing or styling clothes. Like we’ve all had frustrations with that. So you know, if a brand can help ease one of those areas, I think that can actually be really, really helpful. 

SELINA

Yeah.

ELIZABETH

So you mentioned earlier that your Launch Your Brand program, you help your clients startup and make a minimum of $20,000. 

So this might feel like an insurmountable goal for any future entrepreneurs just starting out. So can you share a bit about how you go about helping your clients accomplish that, and if you have any tips for people who want to have a successful launch?

SELINA 

Yeah, of course. So the Launch Your Brand program, or LYB is how we work with aspiring slow fashion founders. So like you mentioned, it’s a six month program, we go from idea all the way to successful launch that makes at minimum 20K. 

I think it’s really important to have that, you know, that financial goal in place throughout the entire program and be intentional. Because we don’t want you to launch your brand and have it fizzle out. We want to make sure we set up the groundwork so that it is profitable from day one. 

So over the past four years, I’ve put all of my tried and true strategies into this program. And I’ve packaged it in a way where it’s not too overwhelming and we’re there with our clients every step of the way. 

So we have an online course where I detail all the business setup items, the customer first approach so that they can figure out what the pain point is and what products to develop. We then have fashion design lessons to help them overview that and we also warm intro them to designers, so they don’t have to go through the stress that we just talked about earlier. Then of course, we help them source materials and manufacturers as well. So that’s taken care of. 

And then from a branding and a marketing and a launch perspective, we also are setting them up for success there. So we have all of our templates, all of our plug-and-play things and we help them support throughout the entire thing. 

So that at the end, after six months, they’re able to launch their pre-sales and make a minimum of $20K. 

So our aim with this program is just when you invest to work with us make your life as easy as possible. So we’re going to give you everything you need to launch your brand successfully. And we’ll also support you to execute along the way. So we’ll intro you to the designers to the materials and manufacturers, things like that. 

And I really think that that is why you can launch in six months and be successful because we’re literally handing you everything on a silver platter. 

And, of course, you can DIY it, but it’s gonna take you, you know, double or triple the time and more effort and more resources in the end. So I really do think that it’s right to work with someone, especially when you’re just starting out.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, definitely. And especially as we were talking about before, if you don’t have that fashion education, and existing networks and resources, it’s so amazing to have this resource that you can access with Recloseted and still ,sort of, be able to get insights and support and guidance. 

I feel like I relied on podcasts and courses so much when starting up my business. And I can imagine it’s even more complicated for starting a brand with physical products and manufacturing. So that definitely makes sense. 

So as we round out this conversation, are there any other final tips or strategies that you would like to share with our listeners? 

SELINA 

Yeah so for anyone listening, I would always recommend planning at least six to eight months out from your launch and build your community at least that far out. Because it takes time to build a community of people that want to buy from you. 

You can’t just decide to put up an Instagram next week, like Instagram post next week and expect you to make like $20K. It doesn’t work like that. You need to be really intentional. So plan the launch out and take at least six to eight months to build up your audience. 

And in terms of what to post I find that people often struggle with that. Because if they don’t have their products, yet, they don’t know what pictures to take and stuff. But I always recommend to share the behind the scenes you can share the materials you’re working with, potentially are the manufacturers you’re talking to things like that so people feel invested and your journey. They can see it come to life. 

And when there’s that type of investment, and people want to see you succeed by the end, that’s really how you can set your launch up for success. So yeah, final tip is just to plan your launch out and at least take six to eight months to build up your audience.

ELIZABETH 

Hmm. And where can people go to find more resources from Recloseted? 

SELINA 

Yeah, so we are in a lot of different places. But the main resource I would love to share with your audience is our free ebook. It’s 30 pages long. It’s basically a summary of what I talked about on this podcast episode, and we have exercises and worksheets for you. 

So you can download it at www.recloseted.com/launch and we can send the link to Elizabeth as well. But that ebook that should really help you as well. And we also are now on YouTube, which has been really exciting and also really like so much work. 

I think I underestimated how much work YouTube is. But I really think it’s a great platform to kind of deep dive on these types of topics because I’m personally a visual learner. So if you just search for Recloseted Consulting on YouTube, we have a lot of free videos there. 

And then of course, we also have our own podcast called the Recloseted Radio. And I am interviewing Elizabeth on there as well. And so make sure you listen to her episode. I’m really excited for it. And I’m sure she’s gonna share amazing nuggets, so you can check out that episode. 

And then yeah, last but not least, we’re @Recloseted on all social platforms.

ELIZABETH  

Awesome. Yeah, and all those links will be in the episode description and in the show notes over on this site as well so you can check it out. 

And then if listeners want to work with you on launching their conscious fashion label, what does that process look like?

SELINA 

Yeah, so that’s mainly just through our Launch Your Brand program and so if you want more information on LYB, you can find it out at www.recloseted.com/LYB. And we are opening doors at the end of September. 

But if you download the ebook at recloseted.com/launch you will actually get on the waitlist and you will be the first to know when doors open. Because we only work with 20 brands per every cohort to really ensure that we can hold their hand and make sure that they are as successful as possible. So folks on their email list will be the first ones to know and the first ones to grab those spots.

ELIZABETH 

Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the show again and sharing so many tips and insights with us really appreciate it.

SELINA 

Of course, Elizabeth, thanks for having me. And I’m really excited for your audience to also listen to your interview on our podcast as well.

ELIZABETH

Aaaand that’s a wrap for this episode with Selina! Thank you for tuning in today. I know there are so many podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you pressing play on this one.

If you are enjoying the Conscious Style Podcast so far, something that would really help us reach more listeners is giving us a rating and/or review on Apple Podcasts. Or, sharing this show with a friend you think might enjoy it too.

If you want more sustainable fashion resources, sign up for our free weekly newsletter, the Conscious Edit. Each week I send a curation of things like articles, documentaries or events, podcast episodes, brands, campaigns to support, and all that kind of stuff. 

You can subscribe at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. And subscribers also get a 10-page list of sustainable fashion resources as a welcome gift if you sign up at that link. The link is also gonna be in the episode description so if you scroll in your podcast app, you’ll see it.

Alright, thank you again for being here. I’ll catch you again next Tuesday — or I’ll be in your inbox on Saturday if you’re a subscriber. Bye for now!

About Selina Ho

Selina is the Founder & CEO of Recloseted, the first one-stop consultancy for sustainable fashion. Recloseted launches + scales sustainable fashion brands and helps existing brands become more conscious through their programs and consulting services.

Selina leverages her experience working at startups and Fortune 500s, and now leads an all-star team of consultants, sourcing experts, and material scientists to transform the harmful fashion industry.

Connect with Selina & Recloseted

Recloseted Website

Recloseted Consulting on YouTube

Instagram: @recloseted

Recloseted Radio Podcast

The post Tips for Starting a Slow Fashion Brand with Selina Ho of Recloseted appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Just as fashion has been getting faster and faster, the pace of media has also been speeding up right along with it. 

That’s why today’s guest, Kestrel Jenkins of Conscious Chatter believes that if we want to slow down fashion, then we also have to talk about slowing down media. 

In this episode, Kestrel also shares:

• If slow media could ever be compatible with social media
• How algorithms impact us as content creators and content consumers
• How news cycles have been speeding up — and what the impact has been
• Why podcasting is such a powerful form of media
• How we can start to slow down our consumption (and production) of media

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

Green Eco Dream, a sustainably-minded marketplace with eco-conscious alternatives for your health, home, beauty, and on-the-go needs.

Check out Green Eco Dream’s collection of low waste, low impact laundry essentials to help make your loved clothes last!

Listen to This Episode: 

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview: 

ELIZABETH

Hey there and welcome or welcome back to the show. Today we’re talking slow media with Kestrel Jenkins, the host of Conscious Chatter. 

A few months ago, Kestrel shared a Reel on Instagram talking about why if we want to slow down fashion, we also need to slow down media. And this post resonated with me so deeply.

As a content creator myself, I often feel overwhelmed with what is expected of us in terms of the frequency and timeliness of the content. Social media algorithms prioritize consistency. Audiences have come to expect relevant content that speaks to the main stories of the week, or even of the day. News cycles move so quickly that you feel like you can’t talk about a topic a week later, or you’re too late. 

On a personal level, this feels overwhelming of course. Beyond that too, I often wonder if I’m really able to provide the best value to my audience, all of you, if I’m creating content with such urgency. 

So I was super stoked when Kestrel accepted my invitation to come onto this show to talk all things slow media. And this conversation was just as incredible as I was expecting — and I know you’re going to get a lot out of it too.

In this episode, Kestrel is sharing:

• What slow media is
• Her thoughts on if slow media could ever be compatible with social media
• How algorithms impact us as content creators and as content consumers
• How news cycles have been speeding up, what the impact of that is, and how we can maybe start to slow it down
• Why podcasting is such a powerful form of media and much more.

We are covering a lot in this one. I feel like I say that in every episode, but it’s always true! So you can find the transcript and all of the relevant links mentioned over in the show notes on conscoiuslifeandstyle.com. 

And if you know someone else who might enjoy this conversation on slow media, send this episode over their way!

Alright, now let’s get to it. Kestrel is going to start us off by sharing her background, what got her into slow fashion, and why she created Conscious Chatter….

KESTREL  

First of all, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to talk about all of these layers around slow media. 

For my background, I studied international journalism and Global Studies. My senior year at college, I interned with a local listener-supported radio station in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I actually got to read the news report every Monday night. 

I didn’t realize it at the time, but I guess I learned a lot of the basics then when it comes telling stories through audio. 

But after university, I was really intrigued with this idea of Fairtrade. But I didn’t really know what that meant in practice, or what I really wanted to do with it. 

And when I think back, to be honest, at the time, like 15 years ago, it was a very different job scene, when it comes to impact-driven companies or Fairtrade companies or more sustainably minded companies, there wasn’t a lot happening on a large scale, especially when it comes to the job market. 

So, after I graduated, I was living at home and was with my parents and was kind of in this funk, trying to figure out what my next move was going to be. And my mom got this catalog from a company called fair Indigo. And it was started by this group of folks who worked at Land’s End, and then they left and started their own Fairtrade clothing brand. 

And so she shared this with me, and I was like, oh, okay, this is like connecting some dots of some of the things that I love in the world. And it really just planted like a huge seed in my mind. Thank you, mom. 

So I just like started researching and trying to understand more about this kind of connection between Fairtrade and fashion. And I ended up stumbling upon People Tree, which they call themselves the pioneers in Fairtrade fashion. And once I learned about them, I was kind of sold. 

I was like, okay, so I have to intern with them, how can I make it happen? And so I would send them an email once a week, pretty much just like checking in on the internship status. 

And eventually, I got the opportunity to have an interview, and then the opportunity to actually intern with the PR department there. And when I, when I got to London, they were like, Oh, this is the crazy American who emails me every week, I was like, Hey, it’s me. 

But that experience, I got to work with Anthony Waller in the PR department, and with Safia Minney actually the founder, quite a bit. 

And it was just an experience that gave me this crash course in how fashion as a system is really inequitable, and really a mess. And I just felt like, I was kind of in the space that I was meant to be in. 

And so from there, I guess I’ve kind of like navigated my way through different jobs across the space from online publishing, about green and sustainable design, to working with retail tech startups. 

I’ve always had this primary goal of wanting to bring the conversation around fashion and sustainability to a broader audience. I know, this is something that you and I have talked about in the past, but the podcast started over six years ago now. And it’s been quite a journey. 

Like, I’m… I guess, so grateful that I get to talk to such knowledgeable folks on a regular basis and learn from them and challenge myself and continue to try to challenge the narrative around sustainability and fashion.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah, wow, six years ago, I think that’s about when I started my slow fashion journey. And I probably started listening to your podcasts not long after that, your show has been so transformative for me on my own journey. I listen like religiously and my commute to work. 

And I just so appreciate everything that you’re putting out in the world and all the guests that you’re speaking with and sharing their stories, and just challenging us all to think a bit deeper about all of these aspects of fashion. 

So first of all, thank you. Second of all, thank you for coming on this show. I’m really honored.

KESTREL  

Yeah, thank you! You can’t see me because there’s no video but I’m definitely blushing over here right now. So thank you! 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, if I just told myself five years ago, you’re gonna have a podcast and get to interview Kestrel Jenkins and be like, no. So, fangirl moment. But anyway, there are just so, so many topics that I feel like we could dive into, I mean, you cover so much on Conscious Chatter. 

But for this conversation, we’re going to be exploring slow media. And you’re actually the first person I heard use this term, I heard you use it on Instagram, and I believe, a few times on your podcast. So could you define for us what you see as slow media?

KESTREL 

Yes, for sure. Okay. So to me, slow media is at its core, pretty simple is as we think about it with reference to slowing down food or slowing down fashion. Slow media means slowing down the production and consumption of media. 

I guess, the process to reach that mindset and concept in practice is entirely different and a lot more complicated. But for me, when we think about degrowth with regard to fashion, or even on a bigger picture level, like with regard to capitalism, we can’t imagine new systems or ways of doing things without creatively finding ways to slow down the way that we’re currently doing things. 

And so I think just overarching in general, it’s just that slowdown process with a specific attention to detail on media.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. And what first inspired you to start thinking about this concept of slowing down media?

KESTREL 

Yeah, so I had a conversation, I was thinking back and I had a conversation with Reza Cristián, who’s the editor in chief at SUSTAIN the Mag, I looked back to see what episode it was, it was episode 213 of the show from the 2020 season. And we talked about the future of media in this conversation. 

And so I didn’t really have any ideas about slow media in my mind yet at that time. But I really think that that conversation with Reza planted a lot of the seeds that kind of, I don’t know, percolated in my mind over the last couple of years. 

And I guess, to bring it back to concepts around degrowth. This is my general approach on this year’s season of the show. And so for me thinking about degrowth in practice, across societies, across business, across community, that really made me envision how to apply these general theories to all the ways that I interact in the world. 

And so I’m obviously very entwined with media in the work that I do. And so it just kind of, I guess, was natural to start self-analyzing myself and how I was interacting with media, and what a degrowth mindset or sort of a degrowth framework would look like, when it’s applied to media.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, definitely. Degrowth is something that has been sort of, I think, increasing in awareness. It’s definitely something that I’ve learned about in the past year, and I’ve been thinking a lot more about and I think that hearing you talk about slow media was the first time I sort of connected it with media. And I feel like you sort of planted the seeds in my head about that. 

And then I read the book, Stolen Focus, which just totally transformed the way that I think about media and the connections with also like, capitalism and the endless pursuit of growth and how we consume media and all that stuff. 

So I’m just so excited for this conversation, because I feel like it’s not something I’ve really heard talked about before, but it’s so necessary. And I just, I’m really looking forward to this. 

KESTREL 

Yeah me too. And thank you for the recommendation to Stolen Focus because I’m looking at it right now on my bookshelf and I’m partway into it as well and really love the narrative that’s building.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, super good book. I think I’ve mentioned it on like several podcast episodes now. But so before we go too much into like the specifics of slow media. I was curious to hear your thoughts on how slow media is connected with slow fashion. 

So like we’re thinking about degrowth in fashion. How are these concepts intertwined or related?

KESTREL  

Yeah, great question. I think it is impossible to disconnect media from fashion today. They’re entirely interconnected. 

When we think about how we produce and consume content today, so much of the photos, or the videos, or Reels or TikToks that we take in, or basically crafted around consumption, whether we want to actually admit it or not, we can think about the obvious influencers, or we can just think about, the mom next door, who has a tiny social following of friends, and shares their outfits every once in a while, and then their friends comment and ask about where they got that shirt, or that jacket or whatever. 

So I guess I’ve said this before. And this is something that I said in that Reel that you mentioned about slow media, but for me, slowing down fashion means slowing down the production and consumption of media. 

And from a content creation perspective, it’s like, there’s all these constant, like internal battles, right? So from a content creator perspective, we never think we’ve posted enough. And we constantly question the value of our engagement. 

And from a content consumer perspective, we’re always looking for the next thing, we’re never satisfied. And we always are just feeling worse and worse about ourselves, because the platforms tend to constantly tell us that we’re not enough. 

And so I guess with that sort of context, I feel like this is the same mindset that fuels our fast fashion addictions: our obsessions with more newness all the time. And overall, this subconscious participation in capitalism’s core model of take-make-waste. 

I guess I don’t want to totally barrage social media because I do clearly see a value in it. Like, I’m still on it. I’m still using it. And I definitely am still learning from folks that are using it. But I think that there are some deeply embedded issues in the way that it operates and the way that we interact with it.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I mean, this is a big question that doesn’t have a simple answer. But do you think that slow media is compatible with social media? Do you think it’s possible to implement slow media concepts on a platform like TikTok or Instagram?

KESTREL 

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that’s like the question that we all always want to ask around these sorts of things. When we have these big systems in place. 

You know, it’s like the question of can degrowth exist within a capitalistic society? Which, again, is a question that I’ve asked on my past shows. So I’m totally with you on the curiosity. I think like in theory, no, it can’t. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to strive toward that direction. 

And also, if we want to shift the way that media is operating, like yet again, we have to operate within the systems to some extent, in order to transform how things are happening, as well as to get everyday people on board to advocate for it. 

And I think the more that you have a groundswell from everyday people asking questions and kind of challenging those systems, the more possibility there is for change.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s so well put, I also feel this sort of conflict of like, I use social media, I learn from social media, certainly on a business and on a content level, I benefit from social media. 

And I think about I don’t even know if I would have ever began my slow fashion journey if it wasn’t for social media and the people that I found on Instagram. Because there wasn’t really that many people talking about it, certainly not like, in the Midwest and in the suburbs of Chicago. 

But, there’s also, I mean, I don’t want to like give away too much of the Stolen Focus book, but like he talks about, like surveillance capitalism and how that sort of altered how what social media has turned in to and like he argues that social media can be better but yeah, the big question is like, how do we get there?

KESTREL 

Yeah, the big, big, big question.

ELIZABETH 

So you mentioned that, you know, social media can have impacts both on content creators and content consumers. And so I think that, I think that’s something that not a lot of people think about. Like, I know, I didn’t think about that when I was more of a content consumer, but like, that content creators are feeling the same stuff, the same sort of need to keep up.

And it got me thinking about how the algorithm works sort of both ways, addicting both the consumers of content and the creators of content. 

But I don’t know if like, everyday people think about the word algorithm and how algorithms impact social media. But could you speak to, as a content creator, how the algorithm impacts you, and then maybe how that impacts the types of content that people consume on social media?

KESTREL 

Yeah, the algorithms are so I don’t know, it’s just like this big, like, airy-fairy thing it feels like because it’s so unclear how they actually operate. But they definitely impact me. I mean, I feel like anybody who looks at their analytics is somewhat aware of the algorithms. 

For me, I used to do these detailed, like multi-image posts that were, kind of like the cliff notes of my episodes, but they were just never being seen. So I kind of pulled back and stopped taking the time to do them on a regular basis. 

I don’t know, it’s really tough because you create something, you feel really strongly about it. And you believe that folks should hear about it, or read about it, because it’s meaningful to you. And then it can be really frustrating, because the reaction is, you know, radio silence. 

And they go through these waves of, I guess, not posting on the feed now, because it’s too much of a downer, in a sense. But then if I do a Reel, it’s usually way more successful. But sometimes that’s not the medium that I want to use. Like, it’s not the best way to translate information always. 

And I don’t know, it’s just so inconsistent with how many people will see what you create, even if you have a good following, it’s just so, the numbers are so disconnected, in a sense. 

So I don’t know, it’s wild, how all of these algorithms which are, so blurry to us console largely impact the way that we run our businesses nowadays. 

And so it’s like, instead of having a plan of action in the way you want to approach things, we’re kind of like flailing around out here, posting things and hoping that some algorithm god will give us what we need that day to make it all happen. 

And I think it’s, it’s just leading us towards this really bad direction when we’re counting on that. And like, putting so much of our eggs in that basket, when I think we need to think of alternate ways to be connecting and to be building community.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, totally. It’s like creating content, because that’s what the algorithms are preferring like Reels, I think is the best example. Recently, how Instagram has been pushing Reels so much that, for a while, you could almost guarantee that a Reel would do better than a regular post. 

But if that’s not the medium that makes most sense with the type of content that you’re trying to get across. Like, I often struggle with that because I’ll post like 10 image carousels on Instagram, with like, a bunch of information and I couldn’t possibly fit that all into a Reel. So yeah, it’s… it’s hard.

KESTREL 

I always question that, but I feel like yours get a pretty good action. And so maybe, it’s the approach to there’s so many different factors. Like, it’s so hard to know. And then it’s like, you could do the same sort of format of a post, posted at the same time, the same day of the week, two separate weeks, and the reaction is extremely different. 

It’s just really challenging when you are a storyteller. And if that’s been the avenue to reach people, it can be, it’s detrimental to mental health on both sides of the coin, right? 

It’s detrimental to the creator side, because we’re aligning our value with the numbers that the algorithm feeds back to us. And then also, it’s damaging from a content consumer perspective of which I’m a little bit unclear on whether I like saying consumer in this sort of context, but I think for our discussion, it helps to understand…

But like, from a content consumer perspective, it’s also damaging. Because you’re in that constant death scroll cycle, and you’re, you’re sucked into it, and you’re comparing yourself to everyone else. And then you’re not doing things. You’re constantly feeling like you’re not doing enough, but then you’re not getting out of that scroll to actually do things.

ELIZABETH 

Right. Like, it would be nice if social media could just be a source of inspiration. And it didn’t get into this, like comparison trap and this doom scrolling, as you sort of hinted at. And because these apps are designed to be addicting, because the longer we’re spending on them, the more advertising revenue all these companies are getting. 

And so that was such an aha moment. That just totally transformed the way I thought about social media that like, in the algorithms.

Algorithms are designed to give people content that they’ll spend a longer amount of time on, and that’ll catch their attention. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the algorithm is going to show people what’s most inspiring, or what will get them to close the app and do something. Actually quite the opposite!

The algorithms want people to be engrossed in the content. And with things like the negativity bias, and of course, sensationalized things are going to be inherently more attention-grabbing, then that’s sort of like the content that we’re seeing. And it’s not necessarily healthy. 

KESTREL

Yeah, I don’t think it’s healthy. I don’t think it’s healthy. I mean, you know, when you think about it from that sort of content creator perspective, again, it’s just like shopping.

When you actually post and you get a reaction, getting a big blob of likes and comments and views is just another dopamine hit. 

But the problem is after that is not sustainable. Because it doesn’t really feed your soul, only I feel like your ego. So then, after that posts are quickly craving the next big hit or post that gets a ton of traction. 

And it’s this vicious cycle that leaves you living in the sub-reality, instead of being connected to yourself and connected to the people around you and connected to your community. It basically separates you from the things that actually I feel like feed your soul.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. So beautifully put. Yeah, I mean, I think I left personal social media a few years ago, because I was feeling like, all these relationships were like, so artificial. And it was keeping me away from building real offline relationships. Like I was seeing sort of a connection, the more I worried about my Facebook presence, the less I was, actually investing in real relationships. 

And perhaps some people are better at balancing both. But like, as an introvert, it was sort of exhausting my social energy. 

KESTREL 

That’s such a good point. And I think it is still like you’re using that mental capacity to engage and if you’re engaging all the time, how do you have any perspective? And how do you even like know what you think?

ELIZABETH

Oh my gosh, yeah. Wow, what a big question. How do we know even what we think when we’re so inundated with everything?

But yeah, something that you were talking about was the dopamine hit with posting. And I so, so resonate with that. 

And I guess my question is, do you feel like breaks help with that like taking some social media breaks? Or do you still feel that desire to keep posting? Because that’s like a constant battle for me. So I’m just curious, if you’ve found ways to manage that?

KESTREL 

Yeah, I think taking breaks are really powerful, actually. I think it is, in a sense, a form of resistance against the power that social media can kind of wield over us. 

Because if you can separate yourself from the damaging system, you can have a little bit of perspective on how it’s actually engaging with you and how you’re engaging with it. 

And so I think taking breaks is really important for like self analyzation, as well. I’ve taken breaks over the weekend, on and off, you know, like, Venetia LaManna, does her Offline 48, which I think is really cool. And she always, goes offline on the weekend, and then shares kind of what you did, or ask folks what they did over the weekend. 

And I think, you know, kind of making this fun thing that other people are doing with you, but not really with you because they’re in their own world. It’s kind of a cool way to make it feel more community oriented. 

I’ve done it myself, I know, we’ve talked about this before, but I’ve gone offline, like when I had family in town or something. And it was like, I had so much more time. And I could complete and accomplish so many more things that I felt like I was so stressed all the time, like I couldn’t get this done, or I couldn’t get this done, or I couldn’t take time for myself. 

And I remember like finishing this embroidery project I was doing. And sitting down and having great conversations with my brother after we put our kid to bed. And just like feeling connected again to myself, and like my little community around me. 

And so I think in order for us to really understand the impact that social media is having on us, we have to separate ourselves from it. Because if we don’t separate ourselves from it, we really don’t even know what’s happening. Like we’re just in this sub-reality again, like I kind of mentioned, and we don’t have we have blinders on, in a sense, and we can’t really see what’s happening.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, totally. I think that going back to like, how do we even know what we think it’s sort of hard when we’re constantly on social media? How do we even know what we like, what we enjoy? If we’re just constantly seeing what other people are saying they enjoy what other what looks appealing? And, yeah, it takes some sort of like, time away and inner reflection. 

But we know that social media is not the only form of fast media, though it might be the most obvious. I feel like, we’re also seeing new cycles constantly speeding up. And that also causes like stories to be oversimplified, since it takes time to understand the nuance of complex realities and stories. 

So looping back to the beginning and with your background and education in journalism. What do you see as the driving forces behind the speeding up of media and news? And how do you think that media platforms or journalists can start to shift this and perhaps try to like, slow it down? Again, another big question.

KESTREL 

Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking about this question, and I was sitting on a train and my daughter was passed out sleeping on my lap. And I was like, everything is fast nowadays, I feel like being on a train kind of makes you slow down for some reason, like, even if you’re on a fast train, like, everything kind of slows down around you and you feel like you’re in a, I don’t know, I feel like I’m in a different era. 

And so, as always, as I was sitting there, I was like, everything is fast, you know, it’s not just our news, it’s the way our packages arrive, the next day, it’s the way we expect to hear back from somebody immediately, like our friend that we just texted. 

And it’s like, when we request a ride, it can show up to your house in four minutes. It’s everything. 

And the other issue is that everything has been structured around this sort of scarcity model. It’s like, if you don’t get the story out first, your article doesn’t even matter. If you don’t get to the point fast enough, you already lost your reader. 

And I think it’s like we’re constantly operating out of these, like fears of missing out, these fears of not doing it fast enough. And I think there are some platforms who are reimagining media a little bit. But overall, it’s just this big rat race to nothing. You know, it’s like the race to the first people who pop in, read the first paragraph and then click out. 

And I think yet again, we need to be thinking about quality over quantity. From a news perspective, there are definitely journalists out there who I admire. Folks who put, you know, extensive research into their pieces, and they develop stories for months and months. And, for me, this is the kind of journalism that I really believe has true power, and could help take us toward a more sustainable direction. 

But if we keep going on this path toward oversimplification, which I guess for me is part of the issue with social media, it’s like, we’re not going to welcome space for nuance and complexities like you mentioned, which is going to lead to our demise. Like we can sum up every topic into five or 10, square slides, and expect to understand everything about it. 

It’s not possible, and it shouldn’t be overwhelming. And that shouldn’t be defeating to us, that should actually be exciting and thrilling, and make us want to explore more beyond the grid, in search of other research or other perspectives on the topic. But instead, we think we’re going to find all of our answers in those little squares. 

And I think that’s part of our issue is that we need to allow ourselves to disconnect like we talked about earlier, and to explore beyond that, and like utilize it as this inspiration space, which I think in its origins more, more in its origins, that is what it was. But now it’s become this like massive, you know, beast. But we need to use it as an inspiration tool, and then continue our learnings beyond that not expect social media to give us all the answers.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, yeah, so true. And I feel like it makes everything feel more divisive, like and othering. And instead of like, let’s talk about it and see, you know, where do we agree, where do we disagree? Is there anywhere that we can bridge the gap? Or maybe it’s just interesting to hear somebody else’s perspective, even if you don’t agree with them, but having like, a conversation, and yeah, exploring that nuance, it’s so, so challenging on social media.

Going back to the, the dopamine hit, and like performance of posts. I feel like I don’t like when post, I mean, obviously, it’s not nice when a post doesn’t do well, but it’s also it’s a bit overwhelming if a post does do really well, because inevitably it’ll bring some sort of negative comments, strongly disagreeing comments, sometimes offensive comments. And as a privileged white woman, I don’t receive even the worst of it. 

But people can just get so almost like defensive and angry so fast on social media, somehow with the way it’s laid out, I don’t know.

KESTREL 

Absolutely, I mean, it’s a space that really, really, I think cultivates and perpetuates call-out culture. And I feel like again, as a privileged white woman, there definitely spaces for call-out culture. And I think it’s important in certain situations, but I think social media allows it to really kind of become a disease.

Because like you say, okay, so with algorithms what takes off? The posts that take off are the ones that people are gonna stay on for a while. 

So when you have some sort of conversation that gets heated in any sort of capacity, all of a sudden, the comments section sounds off. And that is where people are going to get stuck. They’re going to be looking through and trying to understand all of the drama and what happened. 

And to be honest, like, I never can keep up with that. Like somebody will say, Oh, did you see this? Or did you hear about this? And I’m like, oh, no, I gotta go back and look and try to understand what’s going on. But like, I am the worst at keeping up with those things. So the algorithm is not benefiting from the way I interact with those. 

But, you know, I think the way that it can kind of lift up, sometimes toxic conversations or toxic sorts of environments, is not cool, and is a problem. 

And it’s something that I’m not exactly sure how we address that. Because I think a lot of people are so wound into it. They feel like they need to always insert themselves to those conversations. And I’m not saying people shouldn’t be checking in on people and making sure that things are going in like a positive direction. 

But I think that the way that social media is set up, it often shuts down the conversation and just turns people into like the good guy versus the bad guy, which we all know is never the case in the end. If we think about humans, like there’s nuance again, like we are people, and there are lots of different layers involved there. 

So when we just shut people down and say that’s it the end, I don’t really know how that’s benefiting anything. Because when we have something happen, that’s an issue, how do we actually learn from it? How do we take that information, and think about it and process it, and try to find more intentional ways to move forward? 

And if you wronged things, how do you right them if you’re like, if you’re shut down? I don’t know, those are just questions that I’m always asking. And again, like I don’t want to say that call-out culture doesn’t have a place. But I think at times that can kind of spiral in a not-so-great direction on social.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, totally. I think that it was call-out culture is sort of tough to navigate. When is it appropriate, when is it not? I mean, I’m happy to always call it fast fashion brands, that’s for sure. Or fast fashion billionaires. 

KESTREL 

Yeah, I saw Venetia LaManna, again, she posted something about like how we need to call up not down in a sense. Because often, like we’re picking on the little guys in the sense, when really, is that helping anything?

If they’re trying to figure it out and trying to work through things like shouldn’t we be calling out those above the big systemic giants that are really doing the most detrimental damage?

ELIZABETH  

Yeah it just goes back to sort of the limitations of social media, I feel like. 

But as a podcaster yourself, you talk a lot about the power of media in an audio format. So can you speak to that and why you’ve been so drawn to podcasting?

KESTREL 

Yeah, definitely. This is something that I feel like I felt from when I started it. Like really early on I was like talking about it in a sense like this and it’s only kind of deepened over the years. 

But I believe that audio has a unique ability to connect us on an intimate level, and will allow us to get a lot deeper, a lot quicker than other mediums. There’s something powerful about only hearing folks voices, and stripping away at all of the extra layers of distraction that we regularly are consumed with today, especially nowadays, when like video is king. Right? 

And I guess I have had extremely deep and nuanced conversations with guests on my show, when I had never talked to them at all, prior to the recording. 

And I think given the right circumstances, audio can feel both like a safe space and a space where exploring something new or something revolutionary is possible. 

I guess when it comes to discussions around revolutionary ideas, I really believe audio has a distinct ability to help cultivate those conversations, rather than shut them down, or have people kind of roll their eyes at you, or some other sort of reaction that can sometimes happen. 

I think because you’re so stripped down to just a voice. That’s all you have to go off of. It’s just so intimate, that we can talk about deep things. And we can get into it. 

Like we started out with a video for this call. And I was like, I think we have to take the video off. If I’m gonna speak candidly about like, what I think the power of audio is, I think we have to really do it. 

And there’s something it’s different. Like, I love seeing your face at first and getting to chat with you. But then taking that element away, just allows you to get more raw and allows you to get like really connected really fast.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. So beautifully said, I think I’ve responded like that after so many of your responses. But yeah, I mean, first of all, the conversations that you have on the show are so powerful. And you know, of course, partially because you ask great questions and do your research. 

And it’s so interesting to also consider this other layer of it being this audio format that also invites this sort of intimacy. And I think about like that app Clubhouse was like, basically the can audio social media. And I don’t know if it’s still popular, I kind of fell away from it. 

But I think about how powerful that could potentially be, like really engaging with people on that level and sort of that could like sort of transform what social media is. I don’t know. Were you ever on it?

KESTREL

I think I went to a couple of chats. But again, I’m not so great at testing out all the new social platforms — whatever they are, because I feel like I don’t have the mental space right now in my life to do that. 

But I do agree that that could be a really good platform. I remember Kamea doing a lot of conversations on there earlier on and I popped in for a couple of those to kind of listen in. Again yeah, I do think that getting creative and thinking differently about how we can integrate audio really could be beneficial.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah.

So something that we’ve talked about as content creators in the conscious fashion space, is the big challenge of partnerships or sponsorships with brands. So what are your thoughts on brand partnerships within slow media?

KESTREL 

The big question. So this is like a never-ending conundrum. And something that I feel like is always evolving for me. 

I go through waves where I entirely remove myself from doing partnerships. And then I swing back on the pendulum and find myself feeling really confident in partnerships, as long as I articulate the specifics with listeners, so they can clearly understand how they’re operating.

But it’s just, it’s not easy being a content creator and being an advocate for a more equitable fashion industry is tricky. And the two can often feel like they’re, I guess at odds. I definitely don’t have all the answers here. But I guess I’ll say one thing we don’t talk about enough in the sustainability space is financial sustainability. 

So I want to give a shout-out to Ibada Wadud and Akilah Stewart who were guests on The Root podcast series that Dominique Drakeford hosted. And the three of them had this really honest and unfiltered conversation on episode four of that series, where they talked about the complexities of financial sustainability. 

And I really appreciated you know, how they talked about it in a really practical sense, because I think, like we talked about, we’re in this call-out culture era, where sometimes everything goes back to how you did something wrong, even when you may really be trying to do something good. And we all can always be learning, but also, like, if we can’t pay our bills, we can’t continue to do the work to challenge the systems at large. 

And it’s like, let’s look at again, like who should we be calling out? And I think that’s a question we always should be asking ourselves when we feel this need to call people out? 

Are we the person who should be calling them out? Like, check yourself. What is your positionality to the situation? What is your positionality and the systems of power that are operating around you? And then also is this target the right target? 

Because there’s like this heightened feeling that you should always be doing the “right thing”. But when we operate in these systems, we all are going to have to make decisions that aren’t perfect. 

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, totally. There’s so much more we could go into with that. But I wanted to shift gears a little bit, because we’ve been talking a lot about slow media from a content creator perspective. And I wanted to also talk about slow media from like a content consumer, content viewer, watcher, listener perspective. 

So how do you think that we can start to slow down our consumption or viewing or watching or reading of media?

KESTREL

Yeah, I mean, it’s complicated, because we’re so wrapped around it. But I do think, you know, like we talked about earlier, taking breaks from our phones is huge. Like, I think, go outside and get away from it for moments. Like, don’t feel like you have to read everything. 

I go through these waves, where I start feeling really bad about myself and thinking that I just don’t know enough and that I will never know enough. And guess what that is what the platform wants you to think, that’s them winning, because then you feel like you have to keep getting sucked in to try to catch up on all that you’ve missed. Which leads you to then just continue on the never-ending scroll, afraid to step outside of it all and concern that you’re going to miss something if you do.

And scared that you can’t make an impact on the things you want to change. But you can and we can collectively, but I think it’s all about perspective. And so if we don’t get outside of that bubble, we can again, have that just like basic perspective.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, absolutely. 

And so as we start to round out our conversation here, are there any, like main takeaways that you hope listeners consider or any actionable steps that listeners might be able to take to, to try to reframe our mindset around media and like how we consume it?

KESTREL 

Yeah, I think it’s really important to kind of step away, like we talked about, and also to become a bit more aware of how we’re individually using social media, or how we’re interacting with media. 

You know, I think the first step is always paying attention and observing your own behaviors. So you can, I guess, analyze what ways you want to adjust things to feel better. And above all, like, bring more joy into your life. 

So again, it’s like self analyzation, check on what is actually going on, be aware of those things, and then think about how you want to shift it. And you don’t have to shift it all right away. Like that’s never how things happen when it comes to behavior. But I think, kind of taking that self-assessment process is probably the first good step.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. Like noticing how certain things make you feel, I think can already start to get the wheels turning and start to make a difference. Like there was an article on like NPR life kit that I recently shared. I think I might have also been a podcast episode. But in any case, it was talking about, like FOMO, like the fear of missing out. And of course, it’s a huge feeling on social media, because we’re seeing everybody doing everything. 

And we feel like we’re not doing enough. And there’s some really good advice. And they’re talking about, you know, when you start to feel that way, just pause and think, like, Okay, I’m feeling this way. Why am I feeling this way? And do I need to feel this way? Because some of it is also just sort of subconscious, or, like, ingrained in us from evolution, you know, as for survival, we had to be part of community. 

And so if we feel like we’re somehow being left out, that might have hurt our survival. And I’ve never thought about it that way. But that might explain some of that instinct with FOMO. And just sort of like recognizing that. 

And thinking, Okay, do I want to be doing that? Do I want to be part of this group or not? Is it just as instinct? And if it is something that I want to do, or something, I want to be a part of, how can I be a part of it? And if I don’t, then I’m like, yeah, actually, I don’t need to have this feeling, if that makes sense.

KESTREL 

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that’s a really smart way of thinking about it.

ELIZABETH 

So I always like to end the episodes on an inspiring note asking guests about, you know, what a better future for fashion would look like to them. 

But since this conversation was really focused on media, I first wanted to ask you, what does a better future for media look like to you?

KESTREL 

Okay, this is a big one. I think, it would look like reimagining new content production cycles, just like we don’t need 2,000 new styles a day, (hello, Shein!) we don’t need to release so many articles, or posts or reels or whatever, each day. 

A better future for media would value quality over quantity. And I guess it would allow content producers to have more time and space to develop stories. So they have real perspective. 

And it would allow content consumers again, like I don’t really love that word. But so you can get it here. It would allow content consumers to actually take the information in, in a way where it can actually settle in, and we can have time and space to question those ideas and think about whether we actually agree with them.

And if not, why? Because I think we’re in this space where it’s like this herd mentality. So if somebody says that, then you automatically agree with them. But like, do we always automatically agree with our friends? No! 

And so why do we feel this need to constantly always or automatically agree with someone that we follow on social media? I think we need to give ourselves time and space and more information, again, beyond the grid. Before we make these decisions or kind of cultivate our own ideas and mindset around topics.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I love that. I think that would help so much. I feel very inundated with so much news. 

Education and awareness is so important, but like, how do we also get more action? Do you have any thoughts on that? I know I put you on the spot!

KESTREL 

Yeah, no, that’s a good question. I think it’s something that I’ve been thinking about a lot over the last couple of years too, because I do so much work in this virtual space that sometimes I feel like I’m not doing anything. Because it’s not tactile, in a sense. 

You know, when you have conversations and you’re cultivating narratives, and you’re welcoming guests on to tell stories, like, it’s all really important. But then sometimes it feels like there’s nothing tangible that attaches to it. 

And for me, I’ve been trying to figure out different ways to get more connected to just local community, like that’s been a huge thing to me is like, how can we do more things just in our area that support things that we believe in. 

And so like, one of the things that we do is, we volunteer with this Canyonlands nonprofit, and they help to weed invasive species and plant native plants in the canyons where we hike nearby our house all the time. 

And so just going and volunteering, whenever I do that. It’s like game-changing for a mental state. And I think, a lot of times, we don’t realize how doing tiny things in our community can like help us. Like, yes, it’s helping on a larger scale. 

But also, it really helps us, which allows us to keep doing the work that we’re doing, which I think is so key is that sort of sustainability, from a perspective of doing whatever work you’re doing within sustainability and fashion, like, what you’re doing has to be sustainable. And so what do you need to do in order to feel connected?

And I think because of the way social media operates, we think we’re “so connected”, but actually, we’re so disconnected. Because we’re not in person, we’re not getting our hands in the dirt. We’re not having face-to-face conversations with people. We’re not feeling the energy of community around us enough. And we need that. 

And of course, we’re still existing within a global pandemic. So it’s not as easy as it could have been in the past. But I think that we’re in a place now where there are more opportunities to get more involved. 

And I think that we all are lacking in that department, and can really benefit from those moments, like whatever it is, like find something nearby that you can invest a couple hours into, and just see how that feels and then go from there. 

Because I feel like when you do it, it’s like a different kind of addiction. That’s probably a lot more, a lot, a lot healthier in the long run.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I love that. I love that advice. 

So we are coming to a close of this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I feel like we could talk for hours. But there’s so much there that I think listeners are going to take away. I know I’m going to be thinking about this conversation long after we stop the recording. 

So I will make sure to link your podcast Conscious Chatter and all of your links in the show notes for everybody to check out. And then I had one final question for you. What would a better future for fashion look like to you?

KESTREL 

Thank you for wanting to have this conversation, it really got me in this mindset to kind of further cultivate these ideas that were in my brain. And so I really, I really think that there’s a lot more we can all be exploring around this. 

But I guess a better future for fashion, from a super basic level, it would be slower on all levels.

To me, a better future for fashion would be more regionally connected. It would not solely be built around newness and product development. It would also be structured around mending and reuse, and sharing, and a celebration of resourcefulness. 

And it wouldn’t look the same everywhere because we can’t cut and paste one idea into another location and expect it to have the same effect. It would be about honoring and respecting the history connected to how we make things. 

And it would also be about welcoming new ideas to the table because setting too many standards on anything can I think constrain creativity. But it would be about loving your clothes and wearing the heck out of them. 

And it would be about collecting stories to embed into the clothes that you wear and passing them over, the stories and the garments to the next generations. I guess having a child of my own. I’m always thinking about how I can take care of my pieces. So one day, the little one could wear them in their life.

ELIZABETH

And that’s a wrap for this episode with Kestrel Jenkins. If you want to hear more from Kestrel, definitely check out her podcast, Conscious Chatter. It’s one of my absolute favorite shows and I think you’ll love it too.

Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you’ve been enjoying the Conscious Style Podcast so far, it would really help us if you left a rating and/or review on Apple Podcasts or share this show with someone else you think might like it. 

And then, if you want more sustainable fashion content, you can subscribe to our free weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit over at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit. You’ll find articles to read, podcasts to listen to, campaigns to support, and so much more in these newsletters. Subscribers also get access to a 10-page list of sustainable fashion educational resources as a free welcome gift. The link will be in the episode description to sign up.

So, I will catch you again here next Tuesday for another episode of the podcast — or on Saturday if you’re a newsletter subscriber! 

In the meantime, another similar episode you might like is Ep.37 The Challenges and Complexities of Being a ‘Sustainable’ Influencer or Creator

About Kestrel

Kestrel (she/her) is the host and producer of Conscious Chatter, a leading podcast that reimagines the narrative around sustainability, questions conscious consumerism, and works to deconstruct how oppressive systems impact the sustainable fashion space. Her fashion advocacy is also woven through her work as the cofounder of intentional fashion brand Left Edit & Group Chat, an online community for the consciously curious.

Connect with Kestrel

Conscious Chatter Website

Subscribe to Conscious Chatter

Instagram: @consciouschatter

The post Slowing Down Media With Kestrel Jenkins appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

Yet, we are continuing to see a rise in fast fashion consumption. In fact, when you look at ultra fast fashion brands like Shein, fast fashion has only gotten cheaper, faster, and bigger.

We’re in the midst of a climate crisis. So why can’t we stop buying so many cheap clothes? 

Well, with today’s guest, we’re going to be exploring just how fast fashion brands are “using every trick in the book to get us addicted”… 

This Episode Was Brought To You By:

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Listen to This Episode:

Tune in to this episode of the Conscious Style Podcast below, or on your favorite podcast app

Read the Transcript From This Interview:

ELIZABETH

Hey there everyone and welcome or welcome back to the show. As you may know, this season of the podcast is all about slowing down fashion.

Which feels like quite a big task when we consider the pace of the broader fashion industry. Brands like Zara and H&M were once the fastest on the block, releasing new styles every week or every 2 weeks. But now, we have brands like SHEIN that are releasing thousands of new arrivals every single day. And with SHEIN now worth $100 billion dollars — 5x what H&M is valued at — it unfortunately looks like that’s the direction the industry is headed 

But how did this happen? Why is fast fashion so successful? We’re in a climate emergency, the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change — the IPCC — was clear that all industries must cut emissions in half by 2030. That’s in 8 years. Fashion corporations need to be taking action rapidly. But it seems like the only thing moving fast is the pace of production.

And what about fast fashion shoppers? 

ThredUP’s 2022 Resale Report showed that 74% (so three-fourths almost) of fast fashion shoppers believe their individual consumption habits have a significant impact on the environment and half of fast fashion shoppers believe that fast fashion is harmful to the environment. And 43% of fast fashion shoppers surveyed said they feel guilty purchasing fast fashion. 

However, just 17% of consumers surveyed had plans to spend less money on fast fashion in the next 5 years. Now quitting fast fashion entirely is a privilege of course — which we’ll talk about later in this episode — but that question was just asking if shoppers had plans to buy less, not even giving it up completely or shop exclusively secondhand or anything drastic at all. 

So why is fast fashion proving so hard to beat? Well, in that same thredUP Resale Report, 72% of survey respondents said they shopped fast fashion because it’s “good value for the money”, 53% said because “it saves them time” and 59% of respondents said that fast fashion is a “habit that’s hard to stop”.

Fast fashion is addictive. Nearly half — 48% — of fast fashion shoppers surveyed say they try to avoid purchasing fast fashion when they can and 62% of fast fashion shoppers even admitted that fast fashion brands “encourage people to buy things they don’t need.”

But what makes this fast-fashion habit so particularly hard to break? Well, that is what we’re going to be talking about today with our guest: Zainab.

In this episode, she’ll be breaking down:

• What ultra-fast fashion exactly is
• Why it’s so addictive, especially for young people
• How fast fashion’s marketing tactics keep people hooked on their drug
• The role that influencers play in overconsumption
• And how we can start to challenge and change these fast fashion systems.

Alright, we’re covering a lot in today’s episode so let’s get into it. Zainab is starting us off with a bit of an introduction and her slow fashion story…

ZAINAB  

I’m Zainab, I’m a green fashion editor of Climate Change Magazine. It’s Freezing in LA. And I’m also a journalist focusing on garment worker rights and the intersections between capitalism and climate, racial and gender justice. I’ve been interested in fashion ever since I can remember. 

But I became interested in slow ethical and sustainable fashion about six years ago, when I was doing my undergrad, and started learning a lot more just about the world in general, and the oppressive systems that underpin our society. 

When I started looking into how the fashion industry negatively impacts people and the environment, I started to use fashion as a lens to look at power structures and interlinking systems of injustice. And I’ve been talking about these themes on social media and in publications like Gal-Dem and The Guardian for the past two and a half years.

ELIZABETH  

Yeah. Well, I love your work — so I’m excited to talk about one of your recent articles later in our conversation today. 

But something that we were talking about before, that I’d like to talk about first was how on your slow fashion journey, you know you’ve given up fast fashion, but you also recognize the privileges associated with being able to 100% completely stop shopping from fast fashion brands. 

So can you share your take on quitting fast fashion and what privileges come with that that we should be thinking about in the slow fashion community?

ZAINAB  

So I quit, because I wanted to take a stand. And it was relatively easy, I’m not sure how my approach would have been different if I found it really difficult when I first tried. But the way that everybody shops, even without any ethical or environmental considerations is different, whether it’s your budget or your preference for shopping in person over online. 

And then when you add that element of researching the ethics of a brand, or hunting down a specific item you’re looking for secondhand, there are even more variables at play, you probably need more time. And if you live in an area where there aren’t secondhand shops, your approach to shopping ethically is going to be drastically different to someone like myself, who is street sized. 

And I live in a London suburb, which has a lot of charity shops, and I can get to central London easily. Where there are loads more options, even ethical fashion boutiques and sustainable fashion events going on. And I see all of that as a massive privilege and recognize that even not living near a city makes a huge difference to your shopping habits and your ability to shop in a lower impact way.

ELIZABETH  

Totally. Yeah and it’s really interesting how you’re bringing in some additional considerations there that I think that we don’t always think about.

You know we know affordability and sizing are definitely barriers. Fast fashion might be a person’s only option to find their size or to find a garment they can afford. 

But location is also a privilege. And I remember readers asking me: I don’t have any sustainable fashion stores where I live or any good secondhand stores near me… and the online options aren’t good in my country, so what should I do? And I didn’t even know how to answer those questions, because it’s something I had taken for granted before…so definitely something to consider.

I mean now I might suggest, well just wear what you have, keep rewearing, mending, repairing, tailoring, maybe swapping with friends, family, and all that good stuff but, yeah, at the time I didn’t really know what to say!

But shifting over to what will be our main topic for this conversation. I really can’t wait to talk with you about your piece for The Guardian, titled ‘Ultra-Fast Fashion is Taking Over and Using Every Trick in the Book to Get Us Addicted’. 

Before we dive into the nitty-gritty of that article, could you first clarify what ultra-fast fashion is? 

ZAINAB 

Ultra fast fashion is fast fashion but faster production, faster trend cycles, and faster disposal, which also means lower quality clothing, and even worse labor practices. So none of ultra-fast fashion brands Shein, Fashion Nova, Boohoo, Pretty Little Thing, or one I hadn’t heard of before, Cider, disclose any information about their labor. 

And then to give you an idea of the scale of production at the time I wrote the article for The Guardian, so in April, H&M, which most of us would consider a fast-fashion brand, had added 4,414 styles to its US website, in 2022, leading up to, I think like the beginning or middle of April, versus 315,000 styles added to the Shein website.

H&M is already known to be overproducing and to exploit garment workers. But then when you look at that difference in the volume of product that’s being sold, in comparison to Shein it’s absolutely mind boggling.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, it truly is. And I know exactly what you are referencing — those charts published by Business of Fashion showing the number of new styles that H&M, and Zara, and Boohoo have released versus the number of new styles Shein has released. And the chart truly was shocking. I mean it’s overwhelming to see what Zara and Boohoo are putting out there, but then Shein is just taking it to an entirely different level. And that chart really put it in perspective so I’ll make sure it’s linked in the show notes.

I mean of course, it’s hard to know the exact production volumes that Shein is producing because they don’t actually publish those numbers — like how many garments they make. But based on the number of new arrivals that they are releasing, it has to be a lot, it has to be a lot, of course.

ZAINAB  

Definitely.

ELIZABETH  

And what do you think it is about fast fashion, and especially ultra-fast fashion as we’re talking about, do you think that makes it so addictive, especially for young people?

ZAINAB  

I think mainly the illusion that it’s cheap, and that you’re getting a good deal, when in reality, you end up buying more clothing of poor quality. And also, I think the rate at which the ultra-fast fashion brands pump out new clothing, kind of indoctrinates shoppers into thinking that they need to keep up and turn around the items in their personal wardrobes at the same rate. So in some ways, it feels like the brands kind of set the pace. And then consumers follow. 

And also, from my perspective, I love having variety in my wardrobe, I wouldn’t say that I’ve ever been addicted to fashion. But I like to have a lot of different styles of clothing. So when people talk about having a capsule wardrobe, I just know that’s never going to be me. 

So I do relate to the idea that you want to have different styles of clothing, and want to follow trends. So I can see when a brand is really giving you all of those options. And yeah, adding new styles on a daily basis, even how that can be really appealing if you do want to experiment with your style.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. So this idea of keeping up is something that I’d like to explore a little bit deeper. Like these brands, the way they advertise, the way they market, it makes you feel like you have to be constantly checking the new arrivals to “keep up”.

They’re sending you those notifications, they’re sending you these emails, you feel like you’re missing out, you know as our previous guest fashion psychologist Shakaila Forbes-Bell talked about, there’s this FOMO or fear of missing out that brands sort of prey on. 

Is this fear of missing out or this desire to keep up something that any of your interviewees for your article spoke about?

ZAINAB 

One of my interviewees was from Australia was talking about going to parties on a weekly basis. And so she spoke about keeping up in terms of like, keeping up appearances and making sure that you’ve got something new and interesting to wear to each party every week. Yeah, she definitely spoke about that for more of a peer pressure, kind of clicky you know, like high school teenager perspective, but not so much from a brand perspective.

And I do feel a lot of people who are addicted to shopping, interested in shopping and buying and wearing clothes and not so much interested in fashion. And I think those kinds of people are more influenced by brands who can actually sell them the clothing that they can wear rather than what’s going on in the fashion world more broadly. Whether it’s a luxury brand, setting a trend, that they might not be able to buy or participate in, or watching what people are wearing at the Met Gala or equivalent red carpet, which won’t necessarily be something that they can wear. 

So I think there’s also this distinction between being interested in being clothes just because you want to buy them and wear them. And then just following the trends that brands are pumping out, versus being really interested in fashion and looking at what different people are wearing, and maybe what indie designers are doing, and looking at really unique styles and people who are trailblazing in the fashion industry.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, so many interesting points there.

I mean there’s always a new party, a new event that can be an excuse for a new outfit right? And it just surprises me how much I’ll hear from people that they’re literally buying a new dress or a new outfit JUST for this one wedding, this one party, or this one night out, and this culture of single-use fashion is just so prevalent. It’s almost like a cultural norm — and it’s something that we just really, really need to break.

But I think that marketing and advertising plays a huge role here. So what are some of the various advertising and marketing tactics that these fast fashion brands are using to reel people in and normalize overconsumption and single-use fashion?

ZAINAB 

Yeah, continuing on, from talking about parties and kind of keeping up with social engagements and using that as an excuse to buy. There’s a lot of language relating to newness and low prices, which works really well for brands, but also the way that they market a whole vibe or idea. 

So I went on Pretty Little Thing’s Twitter, because I know they always tweet just like bizarre stuff. And they tweeted some pictures of one of their bikinis. And the tweet read, dreamy summer getaways, need the perfect outfits. Get Island-ready with all new in. 

And I think it’s this kind of language that gets people thinking about a certain vibe they want to give off or an outfit to go with a certain setting that they’re going to be in. 

And I know not so much these days. But back in the day when Vanessa Hudgens was like in her prime at Coachella, every time Coachella would come around, I’d be like, uh, like, I just want to live out my like boho dreams. 

ELIZABETH

ZAINAB

So I really do get it when you see a brand kind of pushing a certain aesthetic, and you want to be a part of it. Or you want to feel like you’re part of the setting that you’re actually not part of by dressing the part. I can see how people fall victim to that kind of marketing. 

And then also, there’s cookies. So web servers use cookies to track user’s browsing activity and store information about them. So shoppers get served ads for items they were already looking for, or items similar to what they’ve purchased online before. These fast fashion ads may appear on unrelated websites making it harder for addicts to avoid looking at fast fashion. 

Even sometimes when I have not searched for something online, but I’ve spoken about it, I always tell my family how our phones are listening to us. So even when you talk about something, sometimes you start getting served ads for it. And it’s a bit scary how that happens. But you really just can’t escape it.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, yeah, that’s a great way of putting it. You really can’t escape it. It feels like it’s sort of coming at you from all ends. I mean, I used to work in marketing. I still do to an extent, you know, my work is sort of running a website, but anyway…

You know what you were saying what the terminology used in the Pretty Little Thing tweets, like that sounds exactly like something I used to write when working in marketing, in social media. And it’s a little bit embarrassing to admit, but it’s true. 

And I wanted to mention it because it just when you’re inside of it, you don’t even notice that is there’s anything wrong with it.

It’s just sort of the messaging that’s been trickled down through the company and maybe it’s even part of the marketing guidelines, brand voice document, whatever, and yeah, you really don’t think that you’re doing anything wrong by tweeting stuff like that. 

You know, I’m not blaming the person just sitting in their cubicle trying to do their job and get their paycheck, and pay their rent. But yeah I do hope that we can start to get more people to question this messaging and challenge these brands and the messaging they’re promoting, the culture that they’re creating through this messaging.

So on the thread of marketing, we have to talk about influencers. We can’t have a conversation about fast fashion and marketing without talking about influencers.

What role do you think that fast fashion social media influencers play in this culture of overconsumption?

ZAINAB 

I think these influencers seem like normal shoppers to a lot of their followers and I think that normalizes overconsumption, when in reality, those influencers are probably much wealthier than their followers, and are perhaps even sponsored by the brands whose clothing they’re showing on their Instagram page or in their YouTube videos. 

So fast fashion brands are majorly profiting off of marketing through influencers in a personable chatty style that shoppers are more likely to fall for than a billboard or generic ad. 

So really, I think it’s quite sneaky on the brand’s part. And I think especially a lot of young people, they think that they know the influencers that they follow, and they begin to trust them. 

And there are lots of people who I like following on social media, but if I see them doing something that feels it doesn’t really align with my values, I can give them the benefit of the doubt, but also I don’t know them personally and I understand that they’re essentially running a business. They’re working with brands to provide for themselves, or at least like provide for themselves, and then some, like live quite a luxe lifestyle in a lot of cases. 

Yeah, I think it’s that kind of illusion that these influencers are just like us.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, right. I mean back to your reference with Vanessa Hudgens, these celebrities are people that we want to emulate, but influencers feel even closer to us than celebrities. So instead of just imagining, wishing that we might emulate them, it feels like with influencers, that we could actually emulate them like they’re just close enough.

We’re just one shopping hauls away from being like our favorite influencer and having her style. We just need to buy this and we’ll have that perfect life. And that might be even more dangerous in some ways. 

It’s clear that there’s a lot that we’re up against with fast fashion.

But something that I can’t stop wondering about is how Gen Z is the most like climate-conscious, environmentally aware, socially aware generation according to all these research studies and surveys. And, we’ve seen that this generation is very concerned about the climate crisis, they care about sustainability, much more than other generations, statistically speaking.

But then Gen Z is also the largest consumer base of these ultra-fast fashion brands, of these fast fashion brands that are just wreaking the most havoc on the planet and exploiting people. So what do you make of this seeming contradiction?

ZAINAB 

Young people don’t know anything other than overconsumption. And not only are they more likely to be influenced by external forces, because they simply haven’t developed or experienced as much as their elder counterparts. 

But there are so many more forces influencing them than there were, say 10 years ago if you even think about how many more social media platforms there are now. And it’s basically impossible to avoid digital content that celebrates glamor and materialism, both of which encourage consumption. 

If Gen Z understands the systems that have laid the foundation for a consumerist society, then they also understand that it’s not their fault. I can see how they’d want to go to a climate protest and get their voices heard. But also buy clothes that make them feel good at least in the moment, in the same breath. 

So this is a huge question and I think about it quite a lot. And it is frustrating that there doesn’t seem to be a clear answer. But I think at the end of the day, the onus shouldn’t be on, like the youngest adults in our society, who are figuring out who they are, maybe having financial struggles, even like becoming independent. It’s not really on them to basically dismantle what our society is built on.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah there’s a lot of layers to that to think about. 

But this brings up another point that you had mentioned in your article for The Guardian, talking about who you believe is responsible for changing the system. And you write that, those of us with the time, energy, and experience should be holding these fast fashion corporations to account. 

So then my question for you is: for those of us who are able to hold the fast fashion brands accountable, what should we start doing to change the system, you know, what can we do?

ZAINAB 

So you can go to the Oh So Ethical website and use the automatic tweet links to tweet brands about their labor practices. And if you don’t have Twitter, you’ll find email templates on the website. So you can copy and paste those and email them to the brands. These are small, quick actions that can have a big impact, like we’ve seen with the Pay-Up campaign. 

And especially if you’re able to do them using a public social media account, others can see that and be inspired to do similar. That’s something super easy that basically anyone can do even if they only have a few minutes, every now and again. 

I think if you have a public following if you’re someone like me, who makes some content on Instagram, and maybe has some other online presence, if brands are reaching out to you, or you get offered an opportunity to attend an event or partner with someone, I think, always do your research into the values of that business or that individual. 

And if you find that you’re not aligned with that business or that person and that you’re going to reject this opportunity, I think it’s really important to give feedback. Often it takes me a while to get back to people because I want to really think about what I want to say. Often it starts with me asking a lot of questions first, and then kind of deciding what I want to do. 

But that’s super important if you are in a position where you can work with brands, asking a lot of questions beforehand is really important. And I also like to share screenshots sometimes of email exchanges, or exchanges on Instagram, DMs that I have with brands on my Instagram stories to just show other people the questions that I ask and the things that I take into account before I decide to work with someone.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah. And could you share a couple of those questions that you ask if you know others listening are in a position where brands are reaching out to them?

ZAINAB 

Do you pay your workers a living wage is a good one to start with.

If it’s like a fashion brand, and you’ve had a look on their website, and you are unsure about the fabrics or something like that, you could ask a specific question about the fabric. So if you see those polyester, on the website, you could ask about maybe why they’re using polyester or do they have plans to move to natural fibers. 

I also often ask about size inclusivity. People don’t often think that that’s a part of sustainability. But I think ethical fashion for me is about justice and equality. And everybody needs to be able to wear clothes and feel good in clothes. So it’s important to me to also ask what brands are doing to expand their size range if it’s not already inclusive.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, thank you for those question ideas. Those are all great questions to ask. And that sort of brings me to my next question for you, which is about greenwashing. 

So greenwashing like this is just one of the biggest topics in the sustainable fashion community because it’s become so prevalent and it’s getting really hard to navigate.

What are some of the greenwashing examples that you’ve seen from fast fashion brands? And what do you think the impact is of this greenwashing?

ZAINAB 

So first of all, I want to define the term. So in a piece that I wrote not about fashion, but about greenwashing in a different context, I defined it as selective or performative care for the environment. 

ELIZABETH

Mhm.

ZAINAB

So when it comes to fashion, one of the ways or yeah, one of the ways in which greenwashing manifests is in recycled collections, which are often recycled plastic, and or include items that have a really small percentage of recycled fibers. So that’s something to look out for not just taking things for face value, and actually looking at fabric and care labels, also organic cotton collections. 

And greenwashing by brands is just a vicious cycle basically because average shoppers who aren’t looking into the ethics and sustainability credentials of a brand are just going to accept whatever a brand tells them is “good” about their clothes without questioning it further. 

And that then gives the brands even more power to continue overproducing without addressing their inherent unsustainability or taking any kind of accountability for their negative impacts on the environment.

ELIZABETH

Yeah, I mean as a former fast fashion shopper, who was starting to think about sustainability, I believed these sustainability claims from fast fashion brands, I think partially because I wanted to believe it. Right?

I wanted to keep shopping these fast fashion brands, and I didn’t want to accept that it was at odds with what I was learning about the climate crisis, and sustainability, and social justice.

I mean it’s hard to change our habits; it’s hard to accept that maybe what we’ve been doing is not aligned with our deeper values.

But sort of related to this, I wanted to ask you: do you think it’s possible for fast fashion brands to ever move beyond greenwashing and really be sustainable? Is there anything that they could do to actually ever be sustainable in your point of view? 

ZAINAB 

I don’t think so. I feel like it’s in the name. It’s fast fashion. So unless a brand wants to evolve into a different kind of brand, that functions on a different system. 

I don’t see it unless there’s like some major science that I’m not aware of that could make that work. Like I don’t know if circular or regenerative processes could one day enable fast fashion brands to actually not be terrible. So I don’t think so.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, I agree with that for sure. I had a feeling that you would think that but I was curious to get your take on it. 

But yeah a journalist recently reached out to me asking me, you know, if someone is going to shop fast fashion, is it better for them to shop the recycled or conscious or eco collections from these fast fashion brands? And I feel like I genuinely did not know how to answer that — I sort of avoided the question. 

And I was like, if a person really wants to help fast fashion brand clean up their act, I think a more effective way is to support campaigns from fashion advocacy organizations, like Remake, Clean Clothes Campaign, Labor Behind The Label, Garment Worker Center, and demand action that way rather than like, thinking that you’re going to be able to vote with your dollars by buying this piece from that conscious or eco collection, but I feel like I didn’t really have a great answer to really addressing that question like yes or no.

ZAINAB 

I think if someone asked me that, I’d probably say focus on the item that you’re going to wear the most. If you are going to buy from fast fashion because even if you buy from a particular collection, I guess you are voting for the better, like” better collection”. But the money’s all going to the same place. So you’re still yeah, lending legitimacy to that unethical business.

ELIZABETH 

Mm Yeah, those are great points. Your money is still going to this billionaire corporation and enabling them to continue and also it’s a smart idea to buy the – to go for the piece that you’re actually going to wear the most so that you hopefully end up buying less overall.

But beyond individual brands and this fast fashion system, we know that there are much bigger systems at play driving these consumption behaviors that we see. So what are some of the other systems at play that you’ve found help perpetuate this fast fashion cycle?

ZAINAB 

So I would say colonialism and capitalism lay the foundation for the terrors of the fashion industry. And then the fact that making clothes is seen as women’s work means that it’s easier for brands to get away with exploiting women garment workers and firing them when they get pregnant, and things like that. So there’s sexism. 

When it comes to consumers, there’s so much pressure for women to look a certain way. And that’s been the case for centuries. And I think that brands really capitalize off of that by selling us ideals that we ultimately can’t attain simply by purchasing their clothing. 

I think the discourse around weight loss, trendy body types, and getting your body ready for summer plays a part in that. To elaborate, I’d like to read an extract from an essay in Jia Tolentino’s book “Trick Mirror” which speaks to this really well:

“When you are a woman the things you like get used against you, or alternatively, the things that get used against you have all been prefigured as things you should like. Sexual availability falls into this category. So does basic kindness and generosity, wanting to look good, taking pleasure and trying to look good does too. I like trying to look good, but it’s hard to say how much you can genuinely independently like what amounts to a mandate. 

In 1991, Naomi Wolf wrote in The Beauty Myth about the peculiar fact that beauty requirements have escalated as women subjugation has decreased. It’s as if our culture has mustered an immune system response, to continue breaking the fever of gender equality, as if some deep patriarchal logic has made it that women need to achieve ever higher levels of beauty to make up for the fact that we are no longer economically and legally dependent on men.”

ELIZABETH 

Wow, that was powerful. A lot to think about with that and a lot to sit with. 

There’s a lot we’ve talked about these past 30 minutes or so and there’s a lot that we’re up against with changing the fast fashion system, clearly. But what are some ways that we can start to shift this culture and change these systems to enable a slower fashion future?

ZAINAB

Definitely. Firstly, I would say spread accurate information about consumerism and the fashion industry and whatever communities you’re a part of. And then one step further would be bringing the conversation into unexpected faura. 

So for example, if your job seemingly has nothing to do with fashion, or sustainability, you could suggest doing a clothes swap at your office with a small entry fee that could go towards a garment worker fund. 

I find that people are always curious about clothes swaps when they don’t know much about them. And that’s quite a fun way to get people thinking about their consumption habits. And then more broadly, how the fashion industry works. 

Also, continue educating yourself and call out brands and the ways that I mentioned earlier, it’s important to call out the corporations that hold the power so that you don’t put too much pressure on yourself, and on changing your individual consumption habits, when it’s totally not your fault that the fashion industry is unethical. 

So I think it’s that combination of learning, sharing, and then acting on your learnings.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah I love that framework. And when you say accurate information, could you just clarify what you mean by that, and how we can ensure that what we are reading is in fact accurate information? 

ZAINAB 

Yeah. Often, you’ll read an Instagram post, like a carousel that has like 10 slides, and they will have some facts on it. There won’t be an organization or other source tagged or mentioned at all. And that’s really difficult when so many people do — I hope they don’t rely — but they do consume a lot of information about different topics on social media. 

So I would say always ask if that’s a way that you’re learning about things always ask the people who make those posts where they got that information. If you are reading something that does refer to a link in their bio or a link on their story that has a list of resources, definitely do go and check those out to make sure that the information is accurate. 

Also, when you’re reading long form articles, like for example, mine in The Guardian, click on the links to check that the statistic being quoted is correct. 

Yeah, if you’re reading an article by someone who you’re not familiar with, you really have no idea what their background is, or what kind of research they’ve done. 

And sometimes, it’s easy to assume that when an article has loads of hyperlinks that must be really well researched. And maybe it is, but we all make mistakes. And sometimes you can trip up or a piece of information is out of date. Yeah, it’s good to just not take things at face value, and kind of dig that little bit deeper to make sure that what you’re consuming is accurate.

ELIZABETH 

Yeah, that’s great advice. I like the point about actually clicking through when data or facts are referenced.

And I also know that this is something that I need to and want to be continually aware of as a writer, content creator, podcastor, and editor of a website. I am trying to continually improve upon it because when I started my blog six years ago, I was definitely not properly fact-checking. 

So I’m just gonna admit that right out in the open, but just something that I think we can all strive to improve on in this space making sure that what we’re sharing is accurate.

So sort of shifting gears a little bit here. I actually had a question for you that I meant to ask you earlier based on something you said a little bit ago. You mentioned that you don’t necessarily see yourself being like a capsule wardrobe person. I find this so interesting because what I love about podcasting and interviewing people is that everybody has such different vantage points. 

And we just had an episode with slow fashion creator Jessica Harumi in episode 47 about like the benefits of a capsule wardrobe and she was saying how capsule wardrobe changed her life but, you know, it’s not for everyone. 

So some people might have resonated with that and some people might not have, like some people might be more like you and want a really wide variety of clothing and a lot of choice. Jessica gave her advice for like capsule wardrobes in that episode I was curious if you could give us some advice for people who don’t want to have a capsule wardrobe and they want variety.

How can they still embrace a slow fashion mindset and still be part of like the sustainable fashion movement without something like a capsule wardrobe?

ZAINAB 

That is a very difficult question. I think it’s the same advice that I would give to anyone who wants to shop more consciously. And that’s just exploring the options outside of the mainstream. 

So exploring all the secondhand options that are available to you. Being open to swapping and sharing and renting. Renting isn’t something that I’ve tried yet because it just hasn’t seemed to suit my specific lifestyle and budget. So it’s not been something that I’ve tried. 

But I’m very open to just asking a friend or a family member if I can borrow something, or occasionally I post on my Instagram stories about looking for a specific item. Like I’m going to a wedding next month and I really wanted to wear like a blazer trouser suit. And I posted about it on Instagram and one of my friends said that they just bought a yellow suit do I want to borrow it? And then another friend said that they have a blazer that might go with a pair of trousers that I have. 

So I think even just like putting it out into the world. Sometimes your friends or if you’re posting about it on the internet, you know someone who you don’t know might message you or something and suggest somewhere to find what you’re looking for. So I think being really open is, yeah, the main thing if you’re looking for unique pieces. 

But it is difficult if you like a variety of things, because I still browse secondhand platforms almost every day, which I think a lot of people would say doesn’t really align with the message that I’m putting out there. But I’ve been blessed with willpower. So I purchase very little in comparison to how much I browse. 

But yeah, I think just figuring out what you like, and being able to search for those items, on your apps, or wherever you look for secondhand clothing is good like searching specific brands that you like, or styles, etc. 

But it definitely is really hard if you like a lot of different colors and a lot of different silhouettes. But yeah, if you can, like share and swap and rent, then that’s obviously great, because you don’t have to hold on to all of those items on a permanent basis and store them in your own wardrobe.

ELIZABETH 

I like how you said that at the beginning:  “exploring options outside of the mainstream.” You know thinking about alternative ways of accessing clothing. That’s really interesting.

I also tend to like variety in my closet, but I also don’t want my wardrobe to be super large at any given time, like I don’t want a bunch of clothes in my closet. 

So I’ve been loving swapping through Swap Society. So I can send in my unwanted clothes, get points — or they call it SwapCoin — and then I’m able to (with those coins) get new-to-me secondhand clothes that others in the community are swapping out. So that might be an option for anybody who likes variety. Swap Society is only available in the US though at the moment I believe.

But anyway, Zainab, this entire conversation was filled with so many great takeaways, lots to think about, but also action items to act on as well so that was really fantastic and I wanted to thank you for that. Before we get into the final questions,  could you tell listeners where they can find you and how to connect with you and learn more from you?

ZAINAB 

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram @zainab.slow.fashion and on Twitter at @zainab_fash

ELIZABETH 

Perfect and those links will be in the show notes on consciouslifeandstyle.com as well. And finally, the very last question that I have for you that I ask every guest that comes onto the podcast is what would a better future for fashion look like to you?

ZAINAB 

A better future for fashion looks circular. It looks like fair labor and pay and working conditions for everyone involved. And it looks like black and minoritized women at the forefront preserving and popularizing their heritage through ancient sustainable production techniques and values. 

***

And that’s a wrap for this episode! Thanks for tuning in today — if you found this episode informative, make sure to hit subscribe to get more episodes like this and share this episode with someone else who you think might learn something from it too. 

And if you want more sustainable fashion content, you can subscribe to my free weekly newsletter, The Conscious Edit, where I share articles, podcasts, documentaries, advocacy campaigns, brands, and all of that good stuff. You can sign up at consciouslifeandstyle.com/edit.

Alright, that’s all I have for you today. We’ll be back again next Tuesday for another episode. 

In the meantime, if you want more episodes like this, I recommend Episode 40: What it’s Really Like Working for Fast Fashion with Amanda of the Clotheshorse podcast, and Episode 21: Social Media, Fast Fashion, and Shifting Overconsumption Culture with Lily of Imperfect Idealist.

Thanks again for listening today! I hope you have a great week and I’ll catch you again next Tuesday — or on Saturday if you’re a newsletter subscriber. Bye for now!

About Zainab Mahmood

Zainab Mahmood is Green Fashion Editor of It’s Freezing in LA! and has written on sustainable fashion for award-winning publications such as gal-dem and The Guardian. She focuses on garment worker rights and the intersections between capitalism and climate, racial and gender justice.

Connect with Zainab:

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The post Why Fast Fashion Is So Addictive With Zainab Mahmood appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.